to find them establish it as a practical maxim, that one nation had a right to prohibit another for fishing on her coafts, for then it would follow that we might exclude them in our turn from the herring fifhery, which, to the difgrace of this country, they unaccountably had enjoyed in prevention of us even in our own harbours. He gave a concife account of the ftate of the British fisheries in general, fhewing that the natives of this country, as they excelled their neighbours the Dutch, in the more active purfuit of Commerce, are not defective in those alfo that required perfeverance, and even fluggish, dull, torpid induftry.-He concluded with moving the firft of his refolutions for the above purport. Mr. Haffey professed himself a warm friend to extending our fisheries, but as the matter was new in its nature, and what the Houfe was a perfe& ftranger to, he fubmitted it to the Hon. Gentleman, whether it would not be better for the Chairman to report a progrefs, and ask leave to fit again, that the Refolutions might lie on the table a day or two for the infpection of the Members, before they were called upon to vote them; or else he wifhed the Hon. Gentleman would open what he meant a little more fully to the Houfe. Was he certain when he had taken the trade from the Dutch, the London markets would be fufficiently fupplied with turbot? Mr. Huffey obferved the Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the bounties granted to the Greenland fishery, for there he fuppofed the 95,000l. alluded to, went; and well applied it was; for the Greenland fishery was, undoubtedly, a matter of the first moment to this country. Before he far down he defired to know by what means the fupply of fish would be fecured to the London market? Mr. Beaufoy faid, the matter was not fo new as the Hon. Gentleman imagined; the Refolutions he had moved, were the ⚫ refult of a Committee above ftairs, which had long been engaged upon the fubject, had prefented and printed two Reports, and had been open for every gentleman or member of that Houfe to come to, if he thought proper. The Hon. Gentleman therefore, if he would give him leave to fay fo, had nobody to thank but himself for his want of better acquaintance with the fubject. Mr. Beaufoy explained Mr. Huffey's other queftion very fully by recapitulating the number of vejels that had engaged to go from gravefend, Yar mouth, &c.&c.&c. fhewing that nearly the whole number were already prepared. He alfo ftated the number of seamen employed, and at what expence, declaring that every man employed in the Greenland fishery, coft the country 13. 10s. a man; and that if the expence was twice 131. 10s. it would be well worth while. The expence however of the feamen cmployed in the Turbot fishery would be no more than 41 108 a man. Alderman Watfon rofe to exprefs his aftonifhment at the Hon. Gentleman's comparing the Turbo: fishery to the Greenland fifhery; they were no mere to be compared than a herring was to be com pared to a whale. He expatiated on the valuable benefits this country derived from the Greenland fishery, which had been the great means of preferving the exiftence of the wooden walls of England, as he had heard the navy called in that House. The Alderman nevertheless greatly coni. mended the propofed plan of taking the Turbor fishery into our own hands, and faid he doubted not but it would be of infinite importance and national advantage. He only wished the bounties were not narrowed, but made general. Mr. Beaufoy.gave his reafons, why it was more expedient to confine them in the manner propofed. Mr. Rolle wished for time, leaft the fishery carried on off the coast of Devon, by means of which the London market was fupplied by land carriage, should be injured. Lord Graham ftated, that if the scheme were not inftantly adopted, it would be loft for the year, as the fishery began this month. Mr. Alderman Sarubridge greatly com mended the scheme, and declared the objections that had been mentioned to it to be weak and invalid, Hc faid therc was no fear of the London market being fupplied, as the Dutch, in cafe our people failed, would find it worth their while to pay the 10s. a tun duty on the fith brought by them, and raise the price of the fifh accordingly; the Hon. Gentleman therefore need not be afraid, of going without his turbot for din pilots. The political circumftances of the country confidered, it was not wife nor prudent. At length the three feveral Refolutions pafled the Committee. The Report is to be received this day. SHOP TAX. The Order of the Day for the adjourn ed Committee, to which the Petitions praying a Repeal of the Act of the last Setlions, granting to his Majesty certain duties on retail fhops had been referred for confideration, to fit again, having been read, Mr. Taylor took the Chair, and then Sir Watkin Lewes opened the debate, and faid, that having given notice to the Houfe that he thould move for a repeal of the Shop Tax, he rose with cheerfulnefs to undertake the task, though be wifhed it had fallen into abler hands.Having the honour to be one of the reprefentatives of the metropolis which was principally affected by this partial and oppreffive Tax, he fhould ill difcharge his duty, or defèrve the confidence of his conftituents, was he not to exert the utmost of his abilities to relieve them from so heavy a burthen. He conceived the fubject might be comprised in a very narrow compafs, nor would he enter into any extraneous matter, but endeavour to comprefs his fentiments in as few words as poffible. He faid, when he confidered the arguments upon which the Tax was fupported the last Seffions of Parliament, that it would fall upon the confumer, the operation of which they had not then experienced-and when he confidered the teftimony of the refpecta bie perfons who appeared at the bar, who proved to a demonftration that it operated as a perfonal Tax, and that it could not be imposed on the confumer-he enter tained hopes that the Gentlemen who were fupporters of the Tax before, would become converts to his opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had calculated the Tax to amount to 140,000l. but he did not think it right to take it at the highest calculation; he would therefore take it at 120,000l. that compared with the affeffment on the table for three-quarters of a year, amounted only to 55,000l. adding another quarter, it would amount to 73,000l. which was very little above half the fum it was propofed to raife, taking the deduction of thofe perfons paying' rent from 15. to 251. per annum, who could not pay the parish rates, and were exempted; he appealed to the Right Hon. ' Gentleman, whether it was a Tax he ought to perfevere in; for a more ex• ceptionable Tax he could not propofe.Befides, when they had confidered that moft of the great cities and towns throughout the kingdom petitioned against this tax, all declaring and bearing an uniform teftimony, that it would operate as a perfonal tax, and could not be impofed on the confumers; was there any Gentleman who heard him, who could deny that it was a partial and oppreffive tax on a defcription of men, who with the utmost industry could hardly maintain their families, and who were entitled to their protection; not one of the Members of that Houfe participating in the burthen. For thefe and other arguments' which he very forcibly and ably urged, he contended that the tax ought to be repealed in toto, without any modification, and made a motion, "that the Chairman "be directed to move the Houfe, that "leave be given to bring in a Bill to "repeal an A&t paffed the last Seffions of "Parliament, entitled, an A&t for grant"ing certain duties on Shops within "Great Britain." Mr. Sawbridge moved, as a preliminary proceeding, that the evidence fhould be read over, defiring Sir Watkin would withdraw his motion to give way for it. This being complied with, the chief part of the evidence was read over at the table, after which Mr. Alderman Sawbridge rose and fup ported the motion for the repeal very repuously. He faid, the Right Hon. Gentleman when he introduced the Tax had declared, that the tax would fall upon the confumer, and that the confumer would ultimately pay it. The reverse of this had been ftated at the bar to have` been the operation of the Tax, which ftood proved a perfonal Tax, and a Tax that the fhopkeeper must pay out of his own pocket, without a chance of recovering any part of it. The inability of many of the fhopkeepers of this metropolis, on whom the Tax principally preffed, to pay it, had been established by the clearest teftimony; he hoped therefore the Houte would not perfiftia fo partial, fɔ unjust and fo diabolical a Tax, but that the Right Hon. Gentleman would meet the withes of the people, and comply with the prayer of the Petitions by confenting 3 A to to repeal it. Mr. Sawbridge faid further, that the question was not a party question; it ought to be treated on its own merits independent of any other confideration. His political principles were, he faid, well known, and whenever party conteft was the matter in hand, he was never afhamed to avow his reafons for fupporting the fide of the question taken by thofe with whom he generally acted. If any thing of party had mixed with the queftion, it would have been his object that the Minifter fhould not repeal the Bill, because if any one thing could weaken his credit without doors, and hake his popularity more than another, he was fatisfied, it would be for him to perfift in keeping a Bill in force, that had defervedly drawn down upon it such general odium and deteftation throughout the Cities of London and Weftminster the Borough of Southwark, and almost every capital city and town in the king dom; but the fact, Mr. Sawbridge faid, was, that exclufive of the defire he had to get the Act repealed, in gratification of the anxious wishes of his conftituents, who would readily contribute their thare towards the publick exigencies of the State, in common with the reft of their fellow-fubjects, it was his fincere opinion, that the Act ought to be repealed; that the Tax was a bad one, and would not produce any thing like the money for which it was given. He reminded the Right Hon. Gentleman, that one quarter of the year remained to be collected; if the Right Hon. Gentleman would confent to repeal the Act, he was perfuaded he would render the collection of the quarter due a very easy bufinefs, for in that cafe the fhopkeepers, knowing it was to be the laft they were to be called upon for, would pay it with great cheerful nefs. Mr. Alderman Newnham faid, he very feldom rofe to take up the time of the Houfe, being convinced that he neither poffeffed powers of language or know ledge of publick affairs fufficient to command their attention; but the prefent queftion fo materially concerned the interest of his conftituents, that to be filent upon it would have the appearance of betraying the truft they had repofed in him. He much wifhed, that the evidence given at their bar had been printed, that the Members might have fully confidered it, but that could not have been done without confent, and that confent could not be obtained however, it had now been " read, and he hoped would have the proper effect. The evidence had fully proved, that all the arguments that were made ufe of laft feffion either within those walls or in private converfations with the Minifter, were perfe&ly well founded, and that the Tax had been proved to be partial and oppreffive, even to injuftice. The partiality of it was a felf-evident propofrion, being laid upon a fet of men already taxed more than their proportion, and it certainly was highly unjuft to profefs to lay a Tax on confumption, which was in fact a perfonal one. The oppreffion was heavy indeed, many of the shopkeepers being excufed their parochial Taxes on account of their poverty, and even fome who carried on trade in fplendid fhops, were, when they retired from the publick eye, pining in want and wretchednefs, The tradefmen could by no means lay it upon the confumer, if they could they would not complain; but the publick would have great reafon indeed if fuch a mode were fuffered to be purfued-He believed it could only be thought by the Right Hon. Member who conceived the idea. If a tradefman were to advance any article, others would advertise that they would not make any advance, on account of the Tax, and the publick would flock to thofe fhops, as they did fome time ago to the tea warehouses eftablished under the fanction of Government, to deprive the old eftablished tea dealers of their trade and means of fupport. If this tax went on it would ruin so many of the fmall traders, that the great ones would be well enabled to pay it by the plan first recommended, for the competition being taken away, they could puifue that mode with fafety, and though the tax became very deficient in its production, the publick would be taxed to the extent of the idea, and pay one hundred fold what the revenue received. He had fome hopes that the tax would be given up, as its production was not near fo much as it was laid for, and as the nation could not want the money fo much as was expected, being fo lately rescued from the enormous and dangerous expence of Fortifications, which would have been more likely to have ruined the Conftituti on than to have defended the Country. However at all events, he hoped the divifion of that night would put an end to their apprehenfions of labouring under fo great an oppreffion. Mr. H. Thorton said, that wishing, as he peculiarly did, to take a publick and ingenuous Ingenuous part upon a question, in which he had been before mifrepresented among his Conftituents, he was fure the Houfe would allow him to trouble them with a few words. When the Shop Tax was propofed last year, he food up not (as his Conftiruents were led to believe) in order to make his panegyrick upon the Tax, but for the purpose of refcuing himfelf from fome unwarrantable imputations which had been thrown out both against the Tax itself and those who should vote for it, by fome Gentlemen, who the Houfe knew were apt to speak vehemently both upon that and every other occafion. He had thought proper to avow his conduct, and declare the ground, and indeed the only ground, upon which he thought the Tax defenfible and although he had incurred a degree of unpopularity, which Gentlemen hardly could conceive, he would not allow himself to repent of the motive which then actuated him, though he might repent of the vote. His motive had been a determination to attend to the diftreffing and arduous fituation of the country, under the difficulties which threatened it, at that moment much more than at prefent, without confidering his own interest, or making his own popularity the rule of his conduct. Circumstanced, as he now was, inftructed and urged forward by the unanimous voice of his Conftituents, and profeffing always a real refpect and attention to their inftructions, though under no implicit promife of obedience, he was afraid they would think, and perhaps would have fome right to think, that his refpect confifted only in profeffions, if he refufed to be actuated by them in a cafe fo ftrong as the prefent, He really thought alfo that under all the circumftances of the cafe, it was more for the advantage of the country, and for the credit of the Houfe, that the Tax fhould be repealed, Fifty or fixty of the most populous places had petitioned-the univerfal fenfe of the country appeared to be against the meafure, and he appealed to the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was for his credit that the question fhould be carried against the whole weight, almost of the reprefentation of the country, with the fupport in deed of thofe depopulated boroughs, the reformation of which he had himself been fo defirous of affecting. The Tax had alfo failed exceedingly of its expected produce, and as it was not yet collected, although it was affeffed, the whole unpopularity of it was by no means entirely known. He wished, and indeed he well knew, that other Gentlemen, who had received instructions like himfelf would adopt the fame line of conduct, and would not be prevented by any notions of inconfiftency from fupporting the repeal of the Tax, Mr. Alderman Hammet declared he If never felt more agitation. It appeared to him to be a matter of as much importance as ever came under difcuffion. the Tax was not repealed, a principle of taxation of the most dangerous nature, a principle that ftruck at the very foundation of the Conftitution would be established. A principle that Parliament might take the money, by a Tax, out of the pocket of any particular individual, or any particular description of individuals. A principle to which he, for one, never would give his confent; no, nor to any tax, no part of which the Members of that Houfe were to pay themselves. Mr. Hammet declared he detefted all perfonal taxes; all taxes ought to operate equally on every man according to his property and affluence. The Shop Tax did not. He had a large property in houses, and yet neither he nor any of his tenants paid towards it. The Tax on Attornies he always thought an unjust one, a poor fellow who came and afked periniffion to draw a few leafes, and the Attorney who kept many clerks, and was in full and profitable practice, each paid five pounds a year licence. Was that fair, was it equitable? Mr. Hammet reminded the Houfe, that he happened to be the firft man who objected to the Tax in that Houfe. All he had predicted of it had been fulfilled, and the witnesses had proved it at the bar; exclufive of this, Mr. Hammet faid, he had endeavoured to probe the truth; he had asked if the book feller could encrease the price of his books, or the printseller of his prints, and he found they could not. Mr. Alderman Boydell was one Gentleman that he had confulted, and without finding himself mistaken in the fmalleft degree; he hoped therefore the Bill would be repealed. Sir Jofeph Mawbey profeffed himfelf, extremely adverfe to the Tax, as partial and perfonal. He faid, the fhopkeepers in the county he had the honour to reprefent, univerfally complained of it as a grievance not to be endured. Sir Jofeph gave feveral reafons to fhew the policy of repealing the Act in queftion. He alfo explained the reafon of his abfence from 3 A 2 the the Houfe laft Monday, which was extreme indifpofition; indeed he feemed far from being well yesterday. Sir Edward Afley professed himself a friend to the Tax, when it was originally propofed; he faid, he had expreffed his fatisfaction, becaufe, as he then declared, he thought the fhopkeepers deferved it for hiving fome time entered into a combination to defeat the operation of the Receipt Tax. Sir Edward faid, he had last year ftrongly recommended the Right Hon. Gentleman to make the Receipt Tax effectual by fome proper regulations. If that were done, it would produce a, large fum he was persuaded. Mr. Amyatt was an advocate for either the repeal of the Bill or fome modification of it. He faid, if thopkeepers were to be permitted to charge 5 per cent. on their book debts, he believed they would be contented. Mr. L veden declared his Conftituents were fatisfied with the Tax, all they withed for was the abolition of Hawkers and Pedlars. Mr. Drake, junior, got up and faid, he had been toiling all the day up ftairs in a Committee room, and therefore as he 'had not been able to prepare himself with any array of argument, he must content himfelf with a little fkirmishing. Mr. Drake then, in a very pointed but unarranged fpeech, fupported the Motion for 'a repeal of the Act. He faid, when the Tax was first propofed, they were necef farily obliged to confider it fpeculatively, and to Act upon what it was likely to produce. Since that time affertion had become evidence, and experience was opposed to theory. It had been proved to be a partial and oppreffive Tax, and the fooner it was repealed the better. Mr. Drake faid, he conceived it to be a perfonal Tax, and not a Tax on conTumption; but if it were the latter, it was impoffible but that a great deal more money would be levied on the publick than would go into the Exchequer. He reminded the Houfa what had been the cafe, when a duty on wines, amounting to the rate of one penny the bottle was imposed; at that time the retailers charged two-pence, and in fome cafes five-pence alvance on that penny. An Hon. Gentleman had fuggefted, that if fhopkeepers were allowed to charge 5 per cent. intereft on their book debts, it would make them willing to acquiefce under the Shop Tax. For his part he did not admire that fcheme, because he feared the fhopkeeper would, if that were adopted, often lofe | both principal and intereft. It would be an eafy way of fettling accounts to mea who owed more than they really could or would pay. When the claim was made, i fuch men would fay to the shopkeeper, "Oh! charge me 5 per cent. intereft, "let the account go on, and make a great capital of it!" and thus the whole would be loft. Mr. Drake therefore advised a repeal, as the best way of quieting all fcruples, and fertling all difgufts. In the courfe of his feech he took occafton to express a warm with that Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt were united in their country's fervice. Were that the cafe what might he not expect of benefit to Great Britain! He profeffed the most enthufiaftick admiration of Mr. Pit's virtues and talents, and broke out into an apoftrophe to his country on the subject. He declared it was not a defire of having his Right Hon. Friend facrifice to popularity, that prompted him to advise a repeal of the Bill. He had lived long enough in the world to know the inftability of popularity to value it over highly, | though the acquiring the applaufe of the publick was certainly very defirable to every liberal mind. He concluded his fpeech with a claffical quotation from one of Cicero's Epiftles, (as we conceive) addreffed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Powys faid, as he had not received any inftructions from his Conftituents, he did not rife with the weight of the Hon. Reprefentative of Southwark, or the worthy Magiftrates who had commenced the debate. He had neither received any inftructions nor intimations, and therefore he should look to the Petitions on the table, being of opinion that the Petitions of the people, let them come from whom they would, always deferved the respect and attention of every Member of that House. Mr. Powys adverted to the fort of evidence that had been given at the bar, to which he declared he had liftened very clofely. He gave the witneffes the credit of being extremely well informed, but faid there were fome pofitions of theirs to which he could not reconcile his mind. He mentioned in particular their declarafion that the competition between the epital fhopkeeper and the petty fhopkeeper would prevent their enabling themfelves to reimburfe the charge of the Tax by a diftribution of it on the articles they dealt in. He alfo revolted at the idea of the capital fhopkeepers abforbing the smaller hopkeeper 1 4 |
