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he had not the smallest idea of imputing any Improper motive to the noble Earl, or of contending, that because hawkers and pedlers had neither houfe nor home, they ought to be condemned.

Lord Hopetoun rofe once more, and returned the noble earl who spoke laft but one, his thanks for having, by his defire to difpofe of the whole of the bill, endeavoured to fave him much trouble, as he meant to oppofe the fubfequent claufes of it. His lordship took notice of the extraneous matter that had found its way into the debate, and while he was advert ing to it, was infenfibly, as it were, led into fome animated remarks on the evidence of the manufacturers who had been examined at the bar, touching the fubjects referred to in the Twenty Refolutions, lately voted relative to a Commercial arrangement with Ireland. He faid, he confidered that body of evidence as a moft effential advantage obtained by their lordships, let the Refolutions end how they would. It contained a confiderable degree of Information on most important points, which few of their lordships, could otherwife have got at. He urged additional arguments to induce their lordihips to concur with him in his amendment. He faid, fince the bill had been in agitation (about two months) the hawkers and pedlers of Altynsfield alone, had remitted to the manufacturers of Manchefter above twelve thousand pounds, and as the next month was that in which they usually settled their accounts, balanced them, and proceeded with new credit, that they wished to go on as ufual, and the manufacturers were inclined to let them have goods on credit to the amount of forty thousand pounds, but that the prefent bill would prevent it. He dwelt on the hardThips of this, and gave a circumstantial defeription of the origin and progrefs of the fettlement of hawkers and pedlers at Alfonfield. He faid it begun with the manufacture of a hair button that as they improved they migrated to fmall distances at firit, and to greater by degrees; that thus acquiring a habit of travelling, they took goods of the manufactu ers, and fold them about the country. Al. ftonfield was, he said, not far from Buxton, one of the most heathy and barren fpots in the kingdom, and yet there were 200 families of hawkers and pedlers fettled there. He dilated on the advantages the community reaped from fuch a colony in fuch a place, and expreffed a with, that fome more of the heathy and uncultivated parts of the kingdom were equally well colonized. He faid, the hawkers and pedlers of that spot fold low-priced goods, fuch as the frockings of Leicestershire and thofe of the north-weft riding of Yorkshire, near Afkrig and Richmond, ficckings purchased at the rate of fourteen fhillings the dozen pair, fach as no fhopkeeper kept for fale. They alfo fold the low priced goods of Sheffield, Birmingham, and Manchefter, which could no other way obtain a fale. He dwelt on

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Ordered out a new writ for Steyning, in the room of Sir J. Honeywood, who had accepted the Chiltern hundred.

Mr. Pitt acquainted the Houfe that his Majefty had been waited on with their addrefs, relative to the printing the Journals, &c. and would give directions as defired.

After which he brought in his bill for a commercial arrangement between Great Bri tain and Ireland, founded on the twenty refolutions which paffed both houfes. The bill was read a first time, without producing any converfation, and ordered to be printed for the ufe of the members.

The Speaker then, after faying a few words to Mr. Pitt, put the queftion, that the house adjourn to Thursday the 27th of October; on which

Mr. Sheridan requested to be informed by the Right hon. Gentleman, whether he intended to move for a call of the houfe immediately after the adjournment, as he believed no one would contend that the importance of the fubject was unworthy of the most numerous attendance, and the most attentive confider

ation.

Mr Pitt replied, that from the general and refpectable atter dance which this business had hitherto procured, there was little reafon to fufpect that attention being relaxed in any future ftage. But fhould gentlemen fail to attend their duty, (which however he little expected) he certainly thould give no oppofition to a call of the houfe.

After this, the question being put, was cagried without oppofition. PAR

Parliamentary Debates in the third Seffion of the fixteenth Parliament

of Great Britain.

HOUSE of LORDS.

Tuesday, January 24, 1786.

THIS being the day to which the Parliament food prorogued by royal proclamation; at three o'clock his Majefty went down to the houfe of Peers, and having fent Sir Francis Molyneux, the gentleman ufher of the black rod, to the Houfe of Commons, to defire the attendance of the Speaker, and the members in the House of Peers; they went thither accordingly, when his Majefty being feared on the throne in his royal robes, was pleafed to make the following moft gracious fpeech to both Houses :

My Lords and Gentlemen, "Since I laft met you in Parliament, the difputes which appeared to threaten an interruption to the tranquillity of Europe have been brought to an amicable conclufion; and I continue to receive from foreign powers the strongest affurances of their friendly difpofition towards this coun⚫

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iment.

The refolutions which you laid before me as the bafis of an adjuftment of the commercial intercourfe between Great Britain and Ireland, have been, by my directions, communicated to the parliament of that kingdom; but no effectual ftep has hitherto been taken thereupon, which can enable you to make any further progress in that falutary work.

"Gentlemen of the Houfe of Commons, "I have ordered the estimates for the prefent year to be laid before you : it is my carneft wish to enfore oeconomy in every department; and you will, I am perfuaded, be equally ready to make fuch provifion as may be neceffary for the public fervice, and particularly for the maintaining our naval ftrength on the moft fecure and

refpectable footing. Above all, let me recommend to you the establishment of a fixed plan for the reduction of the national debt. The flourishing ftate of the revenue will, I trust, enable you to effect this important meafure with little addition to the public burdens,

"My Lords and Gentlemen,

"The vigour and refources of the coun try, fo fully manifefted in its prefent fituation, will encourage you in continuing to give your utmost attention to every object of national concern; particularly to the confideration of such measures as may be neceffary, in order to give farther fecurity to the revenue, and to promote and extend as far as poffible the trade and general industry of my fubjects."

Soon after his Majefty's departure, the Lord Chancellor read the Speech; and at the conclufion,

Lord Morton rofe to move an Addrefs

to his Majefty; he introduced his motion in the ufual terms, alluding to different parts of the fpeech in ftrains of panegyric, and was happy to feize the opportunity of thanking the Sovereign for his condefeention. The Addrefs, of courfe, was a mere echo of the Speech, and was feconded by

Lord Fortefcue, who obferved that he was no lefs defirous of teftifying his fenfe of the honour which had been done to the Houfe, than his noble friend; he also congratulated the public at large, on the pleating profpect of the increase of our commerce, and the affurances of our re venue being in fo flourishing a ftate, as to give hopes of leffening the public debt. He thought much praife was due to Adminiftration, for having accomplished fo defireable an end, and it was with the

greatest pleasure he feconded the motion.

Lord Fitzwilliam said, that although it was by no means his intention to oppose the Addrefs, yet he was under the necef fity of entreating their Lordships would indulge him a few moments, for as there were fome points in the fpeech to which he could not confiftently accede, he should wifh to diftinguish himself from those who might be inclined to give their implicit affent to the Addrefs; he fhould be exceedingly forry to have it underfood in the world,

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he had admitted that the bill which their Lordships had thought proper to pafs last feffions, containing the twenty propofitions for a commercial arrangement with Ireland, was a falutary meafure; he had thought it deferving reprobation then, he thought fo ftill; for feveral weeks toge ther, while the meafure was in agitation, he conftantly attended the Houfe for information on the fubject, and the information he obtained only ferved to confirm him in his opinion, that it was fraught with pofitions that would be ruinous to the manufacturers of this kingdom, and reprehenfible for the infringement it made on the conftitution of Ireland; it was therefore with no fmall degree of fatisfaction he had feen it treated in the manner it had been in that country, and he hoped it would never again be revived; it had been feared, reprobated, and detefted here; it had been fcorned, contemned, and rejected there; bu: although he now had no doubt of its being abandoned, yet he could not fuffer a pofition to pafs as unanimous in that Houfe, which could convey an approbation of the measure. As to the flourishing ftate of the revenue, it was a circumstance, if true, that no man breathing rejoiced more fincerely in than he did, whether the Miniiter of Finance had accomplished it in the moft fair, juft, end equitable manner, was not the queftion at prefent; he would therefore leave it with the public to decide upon; but he hoped, if there really was a furplus, their Lordships would be guarded againft any attempt that might be made, to direct it into any other channel than leffening the public burthens; he was led to throw out this hint, by a recent publication, called, The Principles of the Commuta tion Tax: It was not a Grub-street publication; the author was a Gentleman well known; he was of confequence in the Eaft India-houfe, a Member of Parliament, and in the confidence of the Minifter; fo much fo, that he believed it would be no unfair statement to call it a Downing-fircet pamphlet: in the early part of it, a perfon might be puzzled to difcover its meaning, but it was impoffible for any individual to perufe to the end, without perceiving its drift; by that pamphlet, which he could do no otherwife than think of confequence, it would be found the India Company would be very shortly in want of no lefs a fum than 3,200,000l.; he hoped, however, their Lordships would fcout the idea of appropriating the furplus

of our revenue to their ufe, while public at large were almoft finking und the enormity of their burthen.--Lordship then took a view of the In bill that paffed last sessions, and the cons fequences that were likely to accrue fro it. He was at a lofs to find terms fu ciently strong to reprobate a principle thay indifcriminately threw a ftigma upon eve individual who happened to be employe either in a civil or military capacity that country. Minifters had been cau tioned against paffing a bill fo like to create confufion; but they, at th time, infifted that it would no foone. arrive in India, than restore harmon: and deftroy peculation; and, in the ma unreferved manner, charged those whoppofed it with ufing idle declamation upon unfounded apprehenfions: thefe Ministers were, however, now convinced by repeated informations, that their favourite at had thrown the Carnatic into confusion; a confusion that had deterred Lord Macartney, with all his magnanimi ty, from accepting the governor-generalfhip: he did not pretend to speak from any information that honourable perfon had given him; though he was honoured by zes his acquaintance, he had no claims upon his friendship; for, their Lordships might remember, when he was appointed to Madras, he strongly oppofed it; but he fo fully approved of his Lordship's con-duct fince he had been there, that he took the firft opportunity to declare he thought, by his refignation, the Company had loft one of the best fervants they ever had; as to the bill he had alluded to, deftroying peculation, he was firmly of opinion, the contrary would be the fact; and he was confirmed in this opinion, by the actions of the board that had been cre ated by it, who, though they owed their existence to it, had proceeded in direct oppofition, and given reality to that which he believed no man ever thought had an existence: he meant the debts of

the Nabob of Arcot. After dwelling fome time on the confequences of this bill, his Lordship reverted to that part of the Speech which feemed to convey an approbation of the Irish propofitions, and concluded with obferving, that he would certainly give his negative to that part of the Addrefs which alluded to it.

Lord Sydney, could not fuffer their Lordships to depart with the impreffion which the noble Earl might have made on their minds by his remarks on the bill for

establishing

fablishing a commercial arrangement with reland from what his Lordship had faid pon the subject, it might be fuppofed the Beafure was given up; on the contrary, he would affure them it was ftill open for confideration, nor had it been rejected by he Parliament of the fifter kingdom; what er epithets the noble Earl might think proper to throw upon the measure, or the framers of it, he trusted the candour of the Houfe would give him credit that it had been produced by the best of motives, and thought by its fupporters likely to be of benefit to both countries-He certainly did not wish to induce noble Lords to approve of a measure they difliked, nor would their affenting to the addrefs, bear any fuch implication; for, as he understood the fpeech, it took no more notice of it than was abfolutely neceffary, and could not be conftrued into panegyric.As to the India Bill, which his Lordship had thought proper to reprobate in fuch ftrong terms, he differed entirely with him as to its effects, nor did he believe the perfon who had been alluded to had quitted the Carnatic on account of the principles of that bill; it was true he had not Lord Macartney's authority for fuch an affertion, but he firmly believed his Lordship would be forry to have fuch a report credited., He affured the Houfe, that whatever measures had been brought forward and adopted by the prefent fervants of the Crown, originated with the beft intentions, and he as little expected a contrary meaning fhould be thrown on them, as that any objection could be taken to the formation of the fpeech which had been just delivered.

the motion, and who had performed the
task very ably, obferved, much praife was
due to adminiftration; he wished to know
for what; it was a very cafy matter for a
friend to pronounce a panegyric, but those
perfonages had now been fufficiently long
in office to be judged by what they had
done, not by what they intended to do;
the infatuation was worn off the public,
and fo would they judge; he fhould like
to know by which of their measures they
would wish to be tryed; not the commu-
tation tax he believed, fince one of their own
friends, in a pamphlet, which a noble
Earl had already alluded to, had given
up the point of proving it advantageous to
the public; they would not, he believed,
risk their popularity on the fhop tax; the
India bill which had fet the Carnatic in a
ferment, would be, he fuppofed, equally
objected to; nor did he conceive the com
mercial arrangments with Ireland would
ftand a better chance; being reprobated as
ruinous in this country, contemned and
defpifed there; upon what ground then was
our minifters entitled to applaufe? he
was at a lofs to conjecture, and therefore
wifhed for information: his Lordship
then enlarged confiderably
on the
India Bill, and concluded by taking an
opportunity of repeating his queftion re-
fpecting the Irish propofitions.

Lord Walfingham replied to fome part of the noble Earl's fpeech refpecting the Board of Controul, and entered into a juftification of their proceedings.

Lord Stormont then rofe, and in a very able fpeech of confiderable length, contended against the addrefs in its prefent form; he went largely into the abfurdity of fpeaking in favour of the Irish Propofi tions, fince it was now plain they were equally obnoxious to both kingdoms, and which he contended, the fpeech abfolutely did, notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Secretary, as the words were " but no effectual step has been taken thereupon which can enable you to make any further progrefs in that falutary work." Another part he objected to, was that, which ftated foreign powers had given the ftrongeft affurances of their

Earl of Carlife, wifhing not to give an erroneous meaning to what had fallen from the noble Secretary, begged to know what he was to understand was the real fituation of the propofition, which their Lordships, in their wifdom had paffed into a bill laft feffions, and which the Irifh more wifely, in his opinion, had rejected. Did his Lordship mean to say that we have offered them thofe propofitions, and that they might accept them when they pleafed? it was not his defire to tie his Lordship down to time; but if he was to put fuch an interpretation on his words, it would im-friendly difpofitions towards this country," ply, that they were at liberty to ratify them now, or twenty years hence, just as fuited their own conveniency; a ftrange doctrine, and which he trusted would never be acceded to He reprobated the India bill and obferved that government had been warned of its confequences, and he believed, they now forely repented not taking advice. The noble Lord who feconded

for he was unable to conceive how palling edicts, almoft prohibiting our manufactures, were proofs of their friendly difpofition; he could fuppofe they were not inclined to go to war, and therefore thought pacific intentions would have been more applicable-he was happy, he faid, to find there was fome likelihood of leffening our national debt, and he hoped that every

Thillia

shilling which poffibly could, would be applied to the purpofe; it was time in deed fome attention was paid to that subject; our formidable enemies having confiderably taken the lead of us: they had approt rated a certain fum from the year affe. the conclufion of the war to that purpofe. The allufion to the fupport of our navy gave him alfo pleasure, nor was it lefs neceffary; for he understood from what he thought good authority, but which he fhould be glad to hear proved erroneous, that the French build hips much fafter than this country. That kingdom had not confined herself to encreafing her own ftrength, but had very judicioufly formed a powerful alliance. He could not here, however, forbear giving our miniftry due praife for their induftry: they had not fuffered this alliance to take place as quiet fpectators; no, they formed a memorial to counteract it, and 'gave particular orders to have it prefented to the United States a full fortnight after every porter at the Hague knew the alliance was ratified. -His Lordship then dwelt a confiderable time upon the answer of this court to the information given by the King of Pruffia, of the league entered into between him and the elector of Hanover :-he could not he faid, for a moment fuppofe but our minifters were perfectly acquainted with it, and therefore their anfwer muft certainly be looked on as an approbation of the measure, which he could not but condemn as impolitic.-There was an alliance however now which might be beneficial, and which ought to be feduloufly fought after, he meant with Ruffia, and whatever might be the cafe at present, when he went out of office, as the noble fecretaries of ftate could eftify, that defireable object was in a very fair train.His Lord hip touched upon feveral other points relative to the politics of France, Holland, and Germany, before he concluded his fpeech, which he did by declaring he had his objections to feveral parts of the addrefs as it then tood.

Marquis of Carmarthen entered into a defence of adminiftration with refpe&t to their conduct as to the memorial prefented to the United States, and their anfwer to the King of Pruffia; the firft, he faid, the noble Viscount could not have poffibly have read with his ufual attention to ftate papers, or he would not fo far have mifunderstood it, as to charge Ministers with prefenting a memorial to put off a treaty of alliance a fortnight after it was figned; when, in fact, it was only to require no

engagements might be entered into that would be in the leaft likely to interrupt the harmony exifting between them and this country. The latter, he was of opinion was mifconftrued, as he could not conceive the reply given to his Majefty of Pruffia's information by this Court, was any more than several others, nor did it at all pledge this country to take any part in the quarrels of the electorate. The noble Marquis then drew a distinction between the Minifters of the Elector of Hanover and thofe of the King of Great Bri tain; and faid it would have been the higheft abfurdity in the world for the latter to have interfered with the former, as it would have been nothing more than faying, we will not fight for you, and, therefore, you ought not to take care of yourfelves. As to the alliance with Ruffia, he perfectly agreed with the noble Vifcount, that it was a moft defireable ob ject, and he was happy to have it in his power to inform him, that it was in fuch forwardnefs that the Empress had actually named her Commiffioners.

Lord Loughborough followed, and took a review of the different measures that had been brought forward by our prefent adminiftration, and proved that most of their plans had been futile, abfurd, and ridiculous, and their taxes partial and oppreffive; fpeaking of the Irish propofitions he obferved, he could not but re joice in their failure, and, at the fame time, remark how ftrongly fome perfons had preffed the hurrying them through with all poffible difpatch, left the Irifh, who were fo anxious for them, fhould be offended by delay.

Lord Thurlow role in reply, and condemned the manner that had been adopted of debating upon fubjects not before the House.

Earl of Hillsborough was strongly in favour of the Irish Propofitions; he thought let the plan be whofe it might, it was a very excellent one; he denied that it had been rejected by the Irish Houfe of Commons, and hoped it never would. Heanxiously wifhed to fee the moft cordial connection between the two kingdoms, and the time, when there fhould be no diftinction between an Englishman and an Irishman. He was an old man, and might not live to fee it, but he was confident, unlefs fomething of that kind took place, Ireland would be the place where our first foe would commence hoftilities.

Lord Ferrars faid a few words, and the motion for the addrefs was agreed to without a divifion.

HOUSE

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