anjuftinableness of the inftitution, and that the tribunal was meant to be held out as a rod of minifterial power, to fall heavy on those whofe opinions led them to take an adverfe part againft adminiftration; but to be lightly handled, with refpect to others, who might conduct themfelves in a manner more accomodating, and more pliant to the wifhes and wills of the powers in being. Mr. Francis faid, he would not take up more of the time of the Houfe then, as he intended when the proper occafion offered, to beg their attention to his fentiments more at large. Sir Jofeph Mawbey rofe to refift the motion, which he contended was by no means necessary, and that all the arguments urged in fupport of it were rather infulting to the Houfe, as they went upon the fuppofition that part of it was liable to undue influence, when proceeding to exercife its capacity of electors of the new court of judicature. Sir Jofeph faid, he by no means wished to enquire from whom the door-keeper received the papers he delivered; they had not influenced him, nor did he believe they had influenced any gentleman that ballotted. They might juft as well proceed to enquire by whom all the various papers that were put into their hands from time to time in the courfe of the feffion came, fuch as petitions for bills and other things, which would be a moft idle way of spending the time of the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer accord ed moft fully with the Hon. Baronet, and faid, he hoped, a complaint of fo frivolous and idle a nature would not occafion much debate on a day, when agreeable to notice, other great and important topicks were to be taken under confideration. The two heads of an affertion into which the Hon. Gentleman had divided his charge, name-, ly that the written lifts having been delivered was, in the first place, a violation of the privileges of the Houfe: and in the fecond, an iaftance of the Minifter's having attempted to interfere in an election vefted in the members of that Houfe, by treafury influence, were each of them fo obviously ill-founded and delufive, that they have fcarcely merited a fingle answer. In refpe&t to the firft, viz. breach of privi. lege, there had been none, For what fpe cifick privilege of the Houfe, did the fact affumed in argument, but without a shadow of proof, trench upon? Suppofing even that it were true, that the written lifts had been prepared and delivered as the Hon. Gentleman had afferted, POL. MAG, VOL. X, MARCH, 1786.

where was the breach of privilege? And as to the idea that the minds of gentlemen were liable to be influenced, upon having a written lift of names put into their hands to do what they pleased with, unaccompanied by any requeft, or any compul fion to vote for any one name in the lift, that fomething more than infinuation, (for the Hon. Gentleman had that day inrented a new fhade of affertion) was too infulting to the Houfe to be tolerated a moment. But would any man imagine, that the Hon. Gentleman or his friends had in reality any concern for that impartiality in the conftitution of the court of judicature, for which they were now sɑ eager to profefs themselves the advocates, when their conduct on the day of the bale lot was confidered? It was in the power of any forty of them by staying and do ing their duty by ballotting, to have put any name on the lift and had it returned for which fuch attention to a fair and impartial election of the court had the act been framed, that it was fo worded, that no minifter, were he fo inclined, had it in his power to prevent any name from being put upon the lift that forty members chofe to ballot for. Instead, however, of the Hon. Gentleman and his friends tak ing this fair and becoming means of ine furing a return of impartial characters, (according to their ideas of impartial char acters) they had deferted their duty and abandoned the ballot. It was evident, therefore, that the attempt fo made to raife a clamour, was merely an attempt to throw impediments in the way of pub lic business, and to create alarm in the minds of the people, by ill-founded and frivolous complaints. Mr. Pitt fpoke in high terms of the gentlemen who had bal lotted, and faid, that they owed not their characters to the Hon. Gentleman's for bearance, nor would his [Mr. Pitt's] praife heighten them. He added fome other reafoning to prove that the arguments that had been used were infulting to the House, and the whole complaint frivolous.

Mr. Fox rofe in fupport of the motion, and faid, it was aftonifhing to him to hear from the mouths of the very perfons who had night after night, in almost every fpeech they had made when he was in office, and conducting his India bill through the Houfe, attacked him and charged him with having given himself the nomination of the perfons who were to act under the bill, when he rofe up as Se cretary of State, and fuggefted their names for the elestion of the Houfe; he was BL

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As foon as the Houfe was refamed, Mr. Sheridan role and faid, he hoped the motion he should that day make on the fubject of the proceedings, refpecting the propofed plan of fortifying the dock-yards, would not occafion much debate, or meet with oppofition; but previous to his making it, he should imagine it would be right to call gentlemens attention back to the fituation which the Houfe ftood at that moment in refpect to the fubject. Mr. Sheridan then recapitulated all the proceedings, from the the first fuggeftion of the propofed plan, to the period of the Minifter's having given the Houfe to understand that, previous to their being called upon to vote, that the 50,000!. granted towards fortifications to be erect ed for the defence of the dock-yards in 1784, fhould be to applied, the whole matter should be referred to a Board of General Officers, naval, as well as military, to enquire into the nature of the plan propofed, the poffibility of doing without it, the neceffity for having it, the wiftom and policy of adopting it, and the expence it would ultimately incur." Having ftated thefe particulars gradatim, Mr. Sheridan reminded the Houfe of the turn of the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman on Friday laft, when he formally

announced his expectation, that when the ordnance eftimates were voted this feffion, the application of the 50,000l. in hand would be defired; at that time the Right Hon. Gentleman had faid, that the House would not now have the bare word of an indi vidual, or of any Minister to rely on; but the report and unanimous opinion of a Board of the most respectable nature ever inftituted; a Board compofed of the first characters, in the naval and military line now in being. What then, faid Mr. She ridan, was my aftonishment, and what must have been the astonishment of the House, to find an honourable General, a member of that Board, rife in his place and flatly contradict the Right Hon. Gentleman, by denying that the result of the opinions of that Board had been fuch as the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated it to be, or that thofe opinions warranted any fuch declaration as he had made. The Right Honourable Gentleman had risen a fecond time, and put the matter in iffue between him and the Hon. General, challenging the judgement of the Houfe, and calling upon the Houfe to decide who was right, and who wrong in his affertion? How was it poffible, Mr. Sheridan proceeded, for the Houfe to judge without evidence, or means of directing their de termination? Affertion stood against affer tion, and they, altogether uninformed as to the real merits of the fact in iffue, and perfectly in the dark, were defired to defide? This was fo obviously abfurd, that he should have imagined when the Right Hon. Gentleman put the matter in iffue, he would, of himself have furnished those who were called upon to give judgment with the means of forming their opinion; as he had not done fo, Mr. Sheridan faid, he meant to do it by his motion of that day; but as, he was free to fay, he thought a great deal of matter improper to be laid before the Houfe might be contained in the detail of the report of the Board of Naval and Military Officers, he had cautiously foreborne to make his mo tion too extenfive; and had worded it fo as to empower Minifters to lay fuch parts only of what papers the motion called for before the Houfc, as might be placed upon the table with the greateft fafety to the ftate, If, however, his motion in its prefent form were to be found objectionabic, and lefs objectionable words could be fuggefted, he would readily adopt them, and if the papers were furnished, and bore out the Right Hon. Gentleman in his affertion, he would for one, aban

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don all idea of oppofing the propofal to uffer the money to be applied to fortifications. Mr. Sheridan moved for a copy of the appointment of the Board of Naval and Military Officers, of fuch parts of their inftructions, and of their report, as his Majefty's diferetion might deem proper to be made publick, with perfect conhftency to the fafery of the ftate..

fed the Board of Officers; for if he re membered rightly, he had, on a forme occafion, in fpeaking of the bufmefs, relied on the merit and refpectability of the members, as one of the fureft pledges of the juftnefs and accuracy of their report, and of the advantage arifing from this confideration, the friends of the fortifications would be deprived, were the names of the gentlemen to be concealed. He faid, that there could fcarcely be any neceffity for him to fay any thing more on the fubject of the Report of the Board, and the different points to which it went, than he had already faid on a former occafion; he had then kated that it had been referred to the Board to report whe ther a naval force fingly could give fuch effectual fecurity to our dock-yards as the nation might rely upon with confi. dence, in the event of a future war, whether fuch a fecurity could be obtained by the affiftance of an army alone, or by means of a naval and land force combi ned-to thofe queftions the Board had di. rectly and fpecifically anfwered, that those invaluable parts of the kingdom could not be fufficiently fecured by either of the fuggefted modes of defence, nor even by both conjoined, without the affiftance of the fortifications. Here Mr. Pitt went over the subject matter of his fpeech of Friday laft, to prove that it was in the moft frict conftruction, of the opinion of the Board of Officers, that the mea fure was now brought forward, and that their opinion was explicitly and clearly in its favour. As to what the Hon. Gentleman had faid, with refpect to the fentiments of the Hon. General behind him, he muft obferve, that in that he had been extremely incorrect-the Hon. General had by no means even hinted that the opinion of the Board was averfe to the fyftem of fortification, he had only declared that their opinion was not, in his judgment, in favour of the measure, to the extent in which he had stated it; on this part of the question, however, he and the Hon. General were at iffue, and the papers to be laid before the House would be fufficient to determine which of them was in the right.-As to the expence of thofe works that were proposed, he appealed to the Houfe, whether it had been the complexion and character of his political and minifterial conduct, to regard with indifference the interefts of the revenue, and the duties of publick oeconomy? Yet ftill anxious as he was to exert himself to the utipost in favour of

Mr. Windham feconded the motion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that he had heard the Hon. Gentleman with more fatisfaction, and more confo nance of opinion on his part, than he believed, he himself expected, or than he was in general used to do. However, though he joined with him in the main, object of his argument, he muft proteft againft fome particular parts in which he could not think the Hon. Gentleman perfectly correct in his statement. Although he could not agree with the Hon. Gentle man, that the whole of the inftructions given by his Majefty to the Board of Of ficers could with fafety be made publick, because in many inftances thofe inftructjons went to very delicate points, and were of a nature that might probably give fuch information to thofe who might be our enemies in future, as would be highly dangerous and detrimental, nay, as they were in fome cafes more delicate in their nature than even the report itself, because there were many fuggeftions in them which the report did not anfwer, the Board of Officers having found a better method of coming at the Report; yet ftill, fuch parts of the Inftructions and Report as could with propriety be laid before the Houfe, it was highly neceffary it should be in poffeffion of, nor fhould he by any means endeavour to with-hold them. He had certainly, as the Hon. Gentleman had mentioned on a former day, objected to a motion that seemed calculated to give the House information; but his reafon for doing fo was not to prevent information from being obtained, but because the queftion proposed was in fact nugatory, as it required the commiffion appointing the Duke of Richmond, Prefident of the Board of Officers, to be produced, where as no fuch commiffion had ever been made out, the inftrument by which his grace had been appointed being the King's letter, and the fame method had also been ufed to conftitute the other members of the board. He was furprized to find that the Hon. Gentleman had entertained an idea, that it was intended to have concealed the names of the gentlemen who compor

thole great objects, and he hoped it would Members of the Board upon the points hortly appear that his exertions had been fubmitted to them, unless the whole was attended with confiderable fuccefs, he before the Houfe, it was impoffible for the could by no means confent, altho' for the Houfe to determine ju&ly, because co.es very tempting profpect of diminishing hypothetically put, admitted only of a di the publick debt, or relieving the bur- rect anfe er given under admiffion of the theas of the people, to abandon an object hypothefis, whether probable or barely of greater moment, than even the dimi- poffible. Inftead of which, the Ho nution of the debt or the relief of the ought to have before them all the data, fubje&t-the neceflary defence of those that they might judge whether the cafe, naval magazines, our dock-yards. He put hypothetically, was a cafe fufficien ly was glad to hear from the Hon. Gentle- within probability to be worth attention man a declaration that did him fo much or not. He would by no means betray honour, as that he was ready to pledge any ftate fecret, or be guilty of a breach himself, that if he fhould on inspecting of the confidence, under the fial of which the papers now moved for, find that the he flood as a member of the board in bufinels ftood upon the footing he had re- queftion, but without incurring the impu prefented it, as fanctio ed by the opinion tation of fpeaking unguardedly or dange of the Board of Officers fairly and clearly roufy, he would fay that feveral of the collected, he would then abandon his op- cafes fubmitted were mere poftulata, and pofition, and for his part, he was equally hypothetical cafes, as extravagant, as if defirous of coming forward, to meet the it were afked, fuppofe, by fome strange Hon. Gentleman with a fimilar pledge, convulfion of nature, the traits between which was, that if it should appear that Dover and Calais fhould be no more, but the Report of the Board of Officers did that the coafts fhould meet and unite, not fully and explicitly justify the mea- would it not be politic, expedient, and fure, he would himself entirely relinquish abfolutely neceffary, to fortify the Ifthmus, ir, nor fhould he in that cafe require a or neck of land between France and Engfilling from Parliament to carry it into land? Extravagant as this hypothefis execution. Upon the whole he was fo was, feveral that had been put to the perfectly of the Hon. Gentleman's cpi- Board appeared to have been equally exnion with regard to his motion, that he travagant and improbable; in thort, fo had prepared one of almost an exactly much fo, that it would be madness for fimilar tendency, which he should pro- that House to vote away the public money pofe to the Hon. Gentleman to adopt in- to a large amount, merely becaufe to such ftead of his own, not because it was better Hypothetical Cafes an unanimous opinion adapted to the purpofe, or any way pro- in the Affirmative had been given. Geperer in itfelf, but becaufe, in one in- neral Burgoyne faid, he had ever enterftance, it was more accurate in point of tained an high opinion of the military form; it requested his Majefty to lay be- fkill of the noble Duke at the head of the fore the Houfe, the circular letters, by Ordnance, but that he had found him which the Board had beeen constituted; more expert and fcientifick in his engi whereas the Motion of the Hon. Gentle- neering than his partiality had fuggefted; man, from his not having been informed infomuch, that he himfelf, though he on the fubject, required the commiffion, had spent a great part of his life in the when in fact no fuch commiffion exifted. practice of tactics, and all the attendant General Burgoyne rofe as foon as the circumstances, had returned from the Chancellor of the Exchequer fat down, Board with more lights upon the subject and faid, the greatest part of what had of engineering than he had carried with fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman him. His opinion of the noble Duke, had afforded him infinite fatisfaction. He therefore, as a military character was was happy to find the matter in iffue be much heightened, and in what he might tween them was likely to come fairly be in future find it neceffary to fay, he begfore the Houfe. There was only one ged he might not be fuppofed to mean point in doubt with him. The whole of any thing perfonal. He should hereafter the Inftructions to the Board in his opi- probably take the liberty of troubling nion might be laid on the table with per- the Houfe much more at length with his fect fafety to the State. In the Report, opinion on the fubject, and therefore it he admitted, that there was a great deal might not be amifs to lay in his claim, that was highly improper to be made pub-when the inftructions came before the Lick. With regard to the opinion of the Houfe to treat them as freely, as the