orce and efficacy to Of the papers now alled for, the Houfe could already pretty sell judge the tendency, fince in the preeding debate they heard the most mateial pattages read and argued on. They uft therefore be aware, that no harm hatever could arife from producing them, nd making them publick; he and his iends had duplicates of them already in heir poffefsion, and were perfectly masters of their contents; in refufing to let them ormally be laid on the table, the other ide of the Houfe would ftand without excufe.

Mr. Fox contended for fome time, that t was in his mind impoffible that they hould do fo; if they did, and pleaded, that their granting the papers would affect the policy of India, he muft declare, that ever fince he had fat in Parliament, he never had witneffed fo difgraceful a conduct. His comfort however would be, that however the Minifter might with tand every individual motion for papers, and prevent any thing like evidence from being obtained, however he might rely on the power of his majorities in that Houfe, there was another tribunal, to which he must go for trial, the tribunal of the publick, who would judge for themfelves; and however the Right Hon. Gentleman might reft fatisfied in affigning as a reafon for rejecting his Right Hon. Friend's motions, that, if granted, they would affect the policy of India, a reafon too general to be combated, and which if admitted as a fufficient juftification for refufal in every cafe, would amount to a direct vesting of Minifters with the power of protecting every delinquent, however criminal, and of quafhing every enquiry, and every accufation, however founded, at a fingle ftroke. The Right Hon. Gentleman night_reft affured, that though that Houfe would be content, the honour of the nation would not be fatisfied, nor would the people be pleafed at feeing their reprefentatives act in a manner fo difgraceful to themfelves, and fo foreign to the purposes of fubftantial justice. In the courfe of his fpeech he exclaimed-"What a precious farce is daily acting within thefe walls! We fee the friends of Mr. Haftings affecting to be eager that every paper called for fhould be granted; we fee the King's Minifters rifing to declare, that every thing that can properly be granted fhall not be refufed; we fee other gentlemen who call themselves independent men, faying by all means let the Houfe know the whole, and be put into

poffeffion of every neceffary fpecies of information; and yet we fee the fame men all of them dividing together to enforce a negative to a motion for fuch information, and we fee them helping out each other with hints and whifpers during the debate, and pointing to the matters appofite to the argument on their fide the queftion, in like manner as my Hon. Friend and I would affitt each other when we are maintaining the fame point, and arguing for the faine purpose.

The Chansellor of the Exchequer faid, he fhould fay but few words in reply, and he hoped he should not be thought lefs right in prefuming to withstand the prefent motion, if he did not follow the Right Hon. Gentleman's example, and make a fpeech full of angry words, delivered with all the vehemence of paffionate expreffion. Notwithstanding what the Right Hon. Gentleman had thrown out by way of threat, no menaces fhould intimidate him, or induce him to quit that line of conduct which he felt it to be his duty to purfue. The prefent motion he would reject, and he trufted the majority of the Houfe would fupport him in that rejection, when he informed them that it was neither more nor less than the motion that the Houfe had juft decided against admitting, only put into another fhape.The Right Hon. Gentleman, he said, had mifreprefented his arguments: he had not nakedly ftated that the reafon of his refufing his confent to the motion juft negatived, was because the papers then moved for, would, if agreed to, affect the gene ral policy of India, but because they would materially affect the policy of India, by leading to difcover and make publick certain fecrets in the different negociations that had been carried on, the difcovery of which would tend to difturb the peace and tranquility of that country, and lead to confequences that might be highly injurious to the British interefts in India. For the fame reafon he must refufe his affent to the prefent motion, and for the fame reafon he should continue to refuse his affent to any other that should appear to him liable to produce a fimilar effect. Nor would the Right Hon. Gentleman's ufing expreffions infulting to any individual near him, or what was ftill lefs defenfible, infulting to the majority of that Houfe, operate upon his mind in the leaft. He fuppofed the glow of eloquence that they had juft heard, was to be accounted for by the Right Hon. Gentleman's having warmed himself with the conception of it in the 3 Kk 2

Lobby

Lobby, and being determined that a few happy thoughts and ardent expreffions fhould not be loft upon the Houfe; if fo, the Right Hon. Gentleman had fulfilled his defign, whether to the fatisfaction of thofe who heard him, much lefs to their conviction, the Houfe would decide by their vote, which he trufted would go in fupport of the vote they had just given, and that the motion before them, would, like the preceding one, of which, in point of tendency and effect, it was the exact counterpart, receive an exprefs negative. Mr. Pitt faid, he had before been together with the Right Hon. Gentleman to the tribunal he talked of, and he was ready to meet him there again. He complained of gentlemen reading papers as a part of their speeches, which were papers produced before a fecret Committee; God knew of whom obtained, but obtained from those who had betrayed their trust; fuch a practice cut up the principles of all political fecrefy by the roots.

Mr. Sheridan and other Gentlemen fpoke afterwards, and the question was, as Mr. Pirt had predicted, loft,—but with out a divifion.

ly to answer the end that he imagined the Hon. Gentleman had in view, viz. to afcertain the charge the nation had been at in difpofing of convicts.

Mr. Baftard and Mr. Rolle both preffed to have the motion carried as it was worded, fince without fuch accounts, the objects they had to bring before the House could not be attained.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer rofe to declare, that he was forry to fay the fame difficulty still remained in the way of the bufincts that had prevented its having been decided upon fooner, viz. the not having been able to determine upon the fittest place to transport the convicts to. It was at prefent, and had been for fome time under the confideration of Government; he feared it would be attended with con. fiderable expence to the publick, but the Houfe might reft affured as much attention as poffible fhould be paid to it, Government being equally anxious with the moft zealous Member of Parliament who had turned his thoughts to the fubject, to bring the matter to a point, and settle it conclufively.

Mr. Mainwaring faid, he was extremely forry to find that nothing had yet been done, as he was in hopes by this time the matter would have been fettled: It was of

Tuesday, March 7, 1756.

CONVICTS.

Mr. Baftard rofe in his place, and after a few words of introduction, ftating the importance of the fubject he meant to call the attention of the Houfe to, as foon as the proper papers were before them, moved,

That there be laid before this Houfe an account of the money paid by the pubJic, for and in refpect of conviction of felons, from 1775, to the ift of January 1785." And also,

"An account of perfons convicted of offences, and the expences they had coft Government before and after conviction, in the fame period."

Mr. Rolle feconded thefe motions, and the firft was handed to the Speaker, put, and carried.

imagined, and the Magiftrates in general, who faw and felt the inconvenience arifing from their not being able to put the fentence of tranfportation into execution, were extremely anxious that some means of their doing fo fhould be provided as foon as poffible. He begged the House to recollect the number of convicts now in prifon, who had not been convicted of tranfportable offences, but whom the Judges had thought unfafe perfons to be left at large. There were full four hundred of these fort of convicts, and of convicts fentenced to tranfportation, at this time, in the jails of the metropolis; and, confequently, there must be a vaft many more in the country jails throughout the kingdom; now as the time of the fentence of thofe fentenced to transportation went on from the day of their receiving judgment, it ought to be remembered, that in a few years all these defperate and hardened thieves would be let loofe on the publick; if therefore fome means of fending them away were not found, the town and its neighbourhood would lie at their mercy.

Newgate,

Newgate, and he could declare from experience, that there was the utmost necefty for fome measures being foon taken for carrying the fentence of tranfportation into execution; the greatest part of the felons, that were from day to day committed, had been on board the hulks in the river, where they had been fent for petty offences, and had come out complete thieves. He was glad to find the Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him had taken up the confideration, and as foon as it was in a proper ftate of progrefs, they might depend on receiving every affiftance in his power.

SINKING FUND.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer rofe, in pursuance of the notice he had given to introduce the fubject of the propofed Sinking Fund. He had, for the prefent, he faid, only a preliminary matter to move, which would be a means of bringing the bufinefs in a more clear and methodical manner before the Houfe. There had been feveral papers laid upon the table, ftating the amount both of the expenditure and of the revenue; but he apprehended that the Houfe would not be fo competent to examine and adjust them as a Committee would be; he should therefore move to appoint a Select Committee of nine Members to report upon them, and that Committee he should propofe to be chofen by ballot on the next day. He accordingly moved :

"That the feveral accounts, and other papers prefented this Seffion, relating to the public income and expenditure, be referred to the confideration of a Select Committee, and that the faid Committee be directed to examine, and to report 'to the House what may be expected to be the annual amount of the income and expenditure in future."

Mr. Fox faid, he could certainly have no objection to the meafure propofed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, as it was exactly of a fimilar nature to one he had himfelf moved for in the laft Seffion, at which time the Rt. Hon. Gentleman had objected to it on the grounds of its putting his office of Chancellor of the Exchequer into commiffion.-He did, in truth, highly approve of the general idea, but he thought a Committee of nine rather a fmaller Committee than it was ufual to appoint on fuch occafions.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer reminded the Houfe, that the motion made

*

in the laft Seffion by the Right Hon. Gentleman, was in itfelf widely different, and attended with different circumstances from the prefent. On his ftating at that time the neceffity there was for deferring the establishment of a Sinking Fund until another Seffion, the Right Hon. Gentleman had moved for the appointment of a Committee to enquire what amount of new taxes would be neceffary towards creating a fufficient furplus for a Sinking Fund; this would certainly have been exercifing the functions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whofe bufinefs it was to provide new refources; but the Committee, by his prefent motion, were only to form a judgment of the revenue as it now exifted, not to devife means to add to, appropriate, or improve it.

The motion for a ballot the next day was carried.

MILITIA BILL.

Mr. Pye faid, that this day having been appointed for proceeding in the Militia Bill, and finding it now occupied by other bufinefs, he fhould move for changing the order of the day for that bill unto Friday.

MR. CREWE'S BILL.

Mr. Marham gave notice, that it was his intention the first open day, to move for leave to bring in a bill for extending the bill commonly known by the name of Mr. Crewe's Bill, to the Navy and Ordnance Boards. Thursday was fixed on.

EAST INDIA BILL.

Mr. Francis began a very able, perspie cuous, and mafterly fpeech, with confeffing his thorough conviction of the difficulty of the task he had undertaken, arifing from the weakness of his own powers compared with the strength of those of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him; but on a great publick occafion like that, he might perhaps be permitted to appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman against himfelf. Before he proceeded to ftate the main object of his motion, he would clear his ground, by removing out of his way fuch matters as were in themfelves extraneous to the motion, and which, neverthelefs, bore fuch a relation to it, as made it right for him to take notice of them :And firft, as to the time and circumftances in which he defired their attentionThe act had now been in exiftence nearly two years, and they had all heard of the impreffion that it had made in India.

Meetings

Meetings had been held there, and petitions were thence to be expected. Sufpicions might thence go forth that he meant to avail himself of that circumftance, or that he was guilty of fome unfairnefs in refpe&t to thofe petitioners. He however fhould act independently of either; his qojections to the Bill that Houfe well knew had been conftant and uniform; they were not by any means connected with the reception of the bill in India. The only reafon, Mr. Francis faid, why he had not moved refpecting it fooner, was the want of a fit opportunity; in the Jaft Seffion the Houfe had been fo much engaged with the bufinefs of the Irish Propofitions, that he food but little chance of fuccefsfully calling off their attention to another, and a different, though not lefs important object. The motion, therefore, that he fhould take the liberty to make, was to be confidered as wholly independent of the reception of the bill in India: indeed, had its reception been exactly the reverfe of what it was known to have been, he fhould have made the fame motion, and that not merely for the fake of the British fubjects in India, but for their own; for furely it was matter of deep and interefting import to every lover of the conftitution, whether fuch a law was fuffered to continue in force or not. He fhould, nevertheless, be forry to injure the petitioners, though he was as much in earnest as they were. But he had another object to confider, independently of thofe that he felt in common with the petitioners, and that was the dignity of Parliament. He appealed to nothing but its juftice, and wished that Parliament might appear to act, and to proceed on its own motion, and its own motion folely. He appealed to the candour of the Houfe to fhield him against any infinuations that might be caft upon his motives for taking the part he was then acting. Sinifter motives he had none; his motives were publick; he had often avowed them; the Houfe therefore had them already in their poffeffion.

After having made thefe preliminary obfervations, and laid down certain pofitions as undeniable data, to ground his arguments upon, Mr. Francis proceeded to take a general view of the principles, countenance, and vultus, or volition of the law, as it stood at prefent; details, he faid, were unneceffary, as they muft ftand or fall with the principles to which they belonged; he would therefore avoid detail as much as poffible. The act naturally branched itfelf into three diftinct divifions or parts: ft, The government of the

Company's affairs at home; 2d, The go. vernment of their affairs abroad; 3d, The new judicature to try delinquents for extortion and other mifdemeanors committed in India. It was, he faid, a fact not to be difputed, that the power of the Directors had been defective; hence the conftant complaint had been, that the execu• tive government at home was not firong enough to govern the fervants abroad, and the profeffed object of every bill offered to Parliament had been to ftrengthen the executive government, by giving new powers, and removing impediments. How did the exifting law provide to remedy thefe defects, to remove the cause of the com plaint, or to fupply the one and cure the other? In a manner totally inconfiftent with all rational principles! The part of the bill that concerned the government abroad, was equally against all rational principle, and against experience; and the new judicature was both a dangerous and an ufelefs innovation. In the first part of the bill, the interference of the Proprietors was done away and removed, and the oftenfible power was left with the Direc tors, while the real power was placed in the hands of the Board of Controul.Thus, inftead of uniting and combining the power, the bill weakens it; and inftead of fixing the refponfibility, it leaves it divided. How, he asked, would this operate on the future obedience of the fervants in India? Thefe powers, the nominal and the real powers, the Directors and the Board of Controul, had clathed already, and they clafhed ftill. what principle was fucha fyftem of govern ment to be defended? Would the Right Honourable Gentleman oppofite to him maintain that a double government was better than a fingle one? Would he fay it was more vigorous, and more fponfible-Did not a fingle oftenfible government, from the nature of its conftitution, neceffarily act and anfwer better? Clafhing authority could produce nothing but feeblenefs and indecifion in government; difobedience and neglect on the part of the fervants: if therefore vi gour and refponfibility were the objects of the law, the law defeated itself.

Upon

re

Having thus difpofed of the firft divifion, Mr. Francis proceeded to the fecond, that refpecting the government abroad.The fuppofed want of power in the Directors, and the conftant intention to give, he faid, included the prefumption of dif obedience abroad: Why increafe a power that was not refifted? But every law takes the affirmative for granted. Declarations

and

and penalties were made by the prefent law again difobedience. But who was it that difobeyed? None but the highest fervants; and they, of courfe, were refponfible. He proved thefe premises by afking, if the Governor General and Council did their dury, was it poffible for any fubordinate power to difobey-Certainly not. Who but the governing powers in India could levy war, make peace, negociate treaties, or enter into alliances But all thele things were done by a majority, whofe powers finally centered in one perfon by his cafting voice. The law then, from thefe premifes, fhould have restrained the power; it had nevertheless drawn the oppofite conclufion; from abufe of power the law inferred that it ought to be increased; and it created this power, by reducing the Council to four, in order that the Governor might have a perpetual cafting voice; that was, it united the power, and divided the refponfibility. This, furely, he obferved, was a strange refult, after the cafting voice had been fo much abufed before. It was the worft and weakest way of giving power, because it was uncertain, fluctuating, and precarious. If the principle of giving power to the Governor General was a good one, the power ought to be given by acertain courfe; but the framers of the law were afraid to look the principle in the face. As it was, the end was as bad as the means. He contended, that power vested in a single perfon was dangerous and ufelefs; it was likewife unconftitutional. At first fight of great difficulties, the obvious remedy was, he faid, a Dictator, with power of life and death; but fuch violent remedics might kill or cure, and were not poffible nor practicable under our conftitution. A Governor and Council formed, he faid, a much stronger, at well as a much fafer power. He put the cafe, that a good man demanding exclufive power deceives himself, and would be over-reached and overcome. Artifice would circumvent him, and he would not feel himself flattered, and thus much bad advice might be followed, and fatal confequences entailed on the operations of the governing powers, and vet the Governor General be innocent as to the intention of ill. Again, he obferved, Councils might be factious. Prima facie, why might not the Governor himself be a factious man? In the divifions while he was in India, Mr. Francis faid, Mr. Haftings was always condemned by the Directors. But let it, he faid, be fuppofed that the fault lay with the Council? in that cafe the

inftitution ought not to be blamed; thofe who fent out and appointed the Council ought to be blamed; the fault was originally with them; as the wifeft fyftem might be defeated, or the weakest fupported, according to the choice of perfons. On the contrary, fuppofe that Mr. Haftings, Mr. Barwell, Mr. Clavering, Mr. Monfon, and Mr. Francis, had been of one united virtuous principle: in that cafe, what a fway would Governor Haftings have had? It would have been irrefiftible! Mr. Francis ftated the reduction of a Council of five to a Council of four, as extremely injudicious. He declared he ipoke from experience, when he afferted a Council of five to be the best of any for the purpofes of good government. He fummed up this head or divifion, with recapitulating his principal pofitions, viz. That vefting exclusive power in one perfon was dangerous and ufelefs; that an united Council was infinitely more powerful; but if the contrary were true, the law failed on its own principle, for one way it gave too much, the other too little..

Mr. Francis at length proceeded to his third divifion; and in treating of that, he faid, he fhould expect a general concur rence, because it concerned them all; however indifferent they might be about India, that fubject must intereft them.Wherever they carried their power, they ought, he faid, to carry their justice along with it. He contended, that it was not more the cafe of gentlemen now in India than it was their cafe. "The inftant fuffering," fays he, "is theirs,-the danger ours; Res agitur veftra." He went on to contend, that the inftitution of a Court of Judicature, upon fuch principles, was a monftrous innovation, and for reafons which equally applied to other cafes and perfons. As a fact, it was, he faid, unjust and arbitrary; as a precedent, it menaced the whole kingdom? it acted directly on a few, but it threatened all.-The fundamental principles of his argument, he declared were taken from the King's fpeech of May 24, 1784, in which this warning was given: "The affairs of the Eaft India Company form an obiec of deliberation deeply connected with the general interefts of the country, while you fee a juft anxiety to provide for the good government of our poffeffions in that part of the World, you will, I trust, never lofe fight of the effect, which any meafure, to be adopted for that purpose, may have on our conflitution, and our deareft interes at home." He faid he took

ground