hand to be fwayed by any confideration to ftop the courfe of juftice; or on the other, to confent, even for the fake of justice, to the production of papers that would injure the public. It might poffibly be the intention of fome people to fupport a motion for papers, of which they did not want to make any ufe, and which they knew would not, becaufe they ought not to be granted, merely with a view to ender Minifters odious, by making them appear inclined to fereen delinquents, and top the courfe of justice. Mr. Burke declared that fo far from thinking that the papers he called for ought not to be granted, that he faw no danger in producing them; and he knew they were abfolutely neceffary to enable him to proceed in the profecution. He was, as to himself, perfectly at ease, under the imputation, that he was not ferious, and that he wanted nothing but a pretext for dropping the profecution. Mr. Wilberforce affured the Right Hon. Gentleman, that he did not entertain a fufpicion fo injurious to his character; on the conarary, he had always declared in private companies, that he believed Mr. Burke to be as incapable as any man alive, of fuch a fubterfuge. Here the question was called for, and the Houfe divided on Mr. Burke's motion, when their appeared Mr. Lewis brought in the bill for build-. ing a bridge acrofs Menai Strait from Carnarvon fhire to the life of Anglesea, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a fecond time. On the motion being put that this bill being read a fecond time that day fortnight, Mr. Parry rofe and faid, he had been inftruded by his conftituents, who meant to oppofe the bill, to defire that fufficient time might be allowed them to fend up witneffes, which they wifhed to have examined against the Bill; he thould therefore move, by way of amendment, to leave our the words, "this day fortnight," and infert the words, "this day month." Mr. Drake jun. defied the Houfe to understand that they wc. called upon to vote for deferring the prefervation of human lives, for fuck in fact was poftponthe paffing fuch a bill as the prefent. Mr. Drake reminded the Houfe, that no longer fince than the 5th of December, fixty or feventy people were left in croffing While we were returning to the gallery, Mr. Burke made another motion relative to papers, which we did not hear. Mr. Dundas wished to know for what the Menai. The account of that fatal reafon the motion was urged. accident must have harrowed up the feel. Mr. Burke endeavoured to fatisfy him ings of every Gentleman prefent, and he on the point; after which he reftricted his hoped it would ftimulate their humanity motion to the following points, viz. to difplay itfelf in giving all poffible "that copies or duplicates of all negocia-efficacy and expedition to the palling of a tions, letters, and documents, relative to bill that had fo laudable an object for its the delivering up of Ravnabraw, the Rajah purpofe. of Oupnham, and the Rhuna of Gode, as alfo all letters from Lieutenant Colonels Camack and Mure, relative to each of the Rajahs, connected with the company, be laid before the House. The Oriential names in the above motion occafioned fome laughter. Mr. Burke obferved, that thefe names might ftrike people in this country as being harth. They were not, however, in all likelihood, more offenfive to our Mr. Burton, and one or two other Gentlemen fpoke on the subject, when the Houfe proceeded to divide, but after the gallery was cleared, it was given up, and the bill is to be read a fecond time next Tuefday fe'nnighr. Mr. M. A. Taylor took the Chair, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer rofe, and moved as Modifications of the A&t impofing certain duties, to the following purport on Retail Shops. The Act in the last session not to take cognizance of any duties, except the duty on houfes of 30l. and upwards: The new Act to be as follows: from 51. to, 10l. 4d.—from 10l. to 151. 8d. from 151. to 20l. 15.-from 20l. to 25l 18. 3d.-from 251. to 30l. 15. 9d. Mr Alderman Le Mefurier begged, as the two refolutions were perfectly new to the public, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not call upon the Committee to vote them immediately; but let them lie upon the table a day or two, in order that the metropolis might have time to know what they were, and how the tax would be Ightened by them. The Alderman faid further, that he feared the two refolutions would afford but little fatisfaction to the fhopkeepers of the metropolis, on whom the weight of the tax chiefly refted. The alteration of the quantum of tax to be paid for all houfes rented at 20l. 251. and 30l. could not be any alleviation to the majority of the Shopkeepers of London, Weftminster, and Southwark, becaufe in very few of the streets of the metropolis, and fo more efpecially in that part of it called Southwark, did the Shopkeepers refide in houses fo low rented as from 20 to 30l. He declared he was not one of thofe, to grudge another his good fortune, merely because he had not the happinefs to be equally fortunate, and therefore he was not forry that the country shopkeepers were to be materially alleviated, as they muft neceffarily be in confequence of the modification the Right Hon, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had just propofed, but he might be permitted to remark, that the modifications in queftion were an additional proof of the partiality of the Tax, with refpect to the town fhopkeepers. Mr. Jolliffe faid a few words upon the principle of the Tax, after which the two Refolutions were carried. ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. The Estimates of the Ordnance having been referred to the Committee of Supply, Captain James Luttrell opened the Orddance Estimates as ufual. He stated in particular, that this year there had been no debt, nor no unprovided fervices, a circumftance unparalleled he believed at any prior period. He defcanted fomewhat on the oeconomy of the Board, and on their having fo far enforced their plan of proceeding, that the House was now called upon for nothing but what appeared in the Eftimates. He concluded with moving, that a fum not exceeding 250,000l. be voted for the expence of Ordnance for land fervice for the year 1786, meaning to apply the 50,000l. in hand to the fame ufe. Mr. Holdsworth faid in having given his vote against the fyftem that had been propofed, he did not mean that it should he imagined his opinion was, that no fortifications were neceffary. He only meant to vote against the proposed system, or any other that went upon the idea, that the whole of our Navy might be out of port at one time; an idea which he could not fubfcribe to as very likely to happen. Mr. Holdfworth faid farther that he had taken the trouble to examine the prefent eftimate, and compare it with the Ordnance Eftimate at the commencement of the laft peace; he wished, therefore, to afk the Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him, two or three questions, and he really fhould ask them with no other view than a defire to obtain information. The amount of the Ordnance Eftimates altogether, was much larger this year than in the year to which he had referred. He wished to know the reafon. The Corps of Engineers and the Royal Regiment of Artillery were alfo confiderably encreafed in numbers and confequently in expence. He should be glad to hear why this was fo? another question he wanted information upon, was whether the expence of Invalids was included in the charges for Engineer Corps and Artillery? Mr. Luttrell in reply stated that the Ordnance, Eftimate for the prefent year, when examined, would be found to be on the average of a number of years about the fame with the estimates of the laft peace. That in fact the expences of the department of Ordnance were grown greater under feveral heads than they used to be, and that next year they would be greater charges ftill under the head of Extraordinaries. He explained, that this increafe was unavoidable. With regard to the Corps of Engineers, he stated that great complaints had been at the commencement of the laft war, that there were were fo few engineers, the corps therefore had been increased greatly in number, and confequently the expence incurred on that account was larger. The regiment of artillery alfo was increased: Mr. Luttrell profeffed himself ready to give Gentlemen any explanation they might wish to receive, on that fubje&t. Sir Grey Cooper faid, he rofe not to fpeak to the queftion, but merely to the form and order of their proceedings. The motion appeared to him to be irregular. The amount of the ordnance estimate this year, was politively 300,000l. therefore in point of form, the refolution fhould ftate that fum, and afterwards in the Committee of Ways and Means, provifion might be made for the 50,000l. in hand, in confequence of the fyftem of fortifications round the dock yards, for which it had been voted, having been advanced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed with the Hon. Baronet, that the motion was inaccurate that the whole amount of this eftimate ought to be voted in the Committee of Supply, and the 50,000l. lying in the Exchequer, be brought to account in the Committee of Ways and Means, and there difpofed of for the fervice of the year-Although the House had come to no fpecifick refolution on a former night, when the fubject of the fortifications was before them, declaratory of its fenfe of that measure, the words of his motion having been negatived, and thofe propofed to be fubftituted in their ftead, having been withdrawn, yet as their general opinion was eafily collected from what had paffed in that debate, it fhould be a law to him, however, he might regret the failure of a plan which he did moft fincerely think extremely beneficial to the publick. He joined in opinion with an Hon. Friend of his, that the whole fyftem of fortifications had not been condemned, but that the fenfe of the House was only to be understood as being adverfe to fortifications to the extent propofed he was perfectly convinced that the principles on which gentlemen had argued and voted, against the fortifications, were extremely meritorious, and well meant, nor did he by any means pretend to hold, that those who oppofed them were bound to fuggeft any plan of fortifie cation or fecurity for our dock yards in the room of that which they had rejected. It was the duty of his Majefty's Minifters alone to devife the means of publick de POL. MAG. VOL. X. MAY, 1786. fence, and of Parliament to approve or condemn. In the prefent eftimate it would be found that there were two fums flated, for the purpofe of fortifications, which, though part of the general plan that had already been difapproved by parliament, he apprehended would come within the defcription of fuch parts of it as feemed to be accepted by fuch gentlemen as argued against the whole. There was a fum of ten thousand pounds for Fort Monckton, and of three thousand pounds for completing the lines at prefent fubfifting, for the defence of the dock yard, which, from being unfinished, was nearly in the fame ftate as if a fuccessful attack had been made, and a breach made in it. If therefore it were not to be completed, it would be abfolutely ufelefs, and it would confequently be more advifeable to level the whole and convert the materials to fome other purpose. These lines were calculated to protect the dock yards from immediate deftruction, in cafe an enemy fhould land at the moft obvious, and practicable places of landing at South Sea Caftle, or the place where Fort Monckton food, and therefore, together with that last mentioned place, he apprehended the sense of every gentleman was, that if any part of the plan ought to be adopted, it was that which related to the compleating those two works. Mr. Fox was extremely happy to hear the language the Right Hon. Gentleman had used on the fubject of refponfibility; he had very properly declared that he had no right to demand from any gentleman that had voted against the fortifications, a plan to fupply the place of that which had been rejected. It was however a different language from that which he had held upon the late debate on the fubject. But he fuppofed the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman on that occafion, proceeded from the effects of difappointment. It was undoubtedly the duty of Minifters to furnish plans for the public defence and fervice, and to fubmit them to the judg ment of that Houfe, who had nothing to do but fimply to approve or reject-and in cafe of the latter, Minifters were to fupply the place of fuch plans as were rejected, with others lefs exceptionable; the very meaning of the word refponfible was a fufficient proof that it could not ap ply to the whole House of Commons, for how could they answer to a charge which alone implied refponfibility. Indeed from 3 C the the fingular manner in which the question alluded to, had been determined, it would be more easy to fix the refponfibility on one individual perfon, but he thould be very forry to hear it contended that the Speaker of the House, or the Chairman of a Committee, fhould be held anfwerable for the votes of that Houfe. The charge of three thousand pounds for completing the unfinished works at Portsmouth, was fo trifling, that he fhould not think of making any oppofition to it, but he hoped, that minifters would not call upon the Houfe to vote for it, without vouching that they held it neceffary for the defence of the dock vards. Colonel Norton declared, in voting against the extenfive plan of fortifications on the 28th of February, he meant no more than to fignify his objection to that particular plan. Lord Hood faid, he had been miftated as to what he had faid the other night, he would therefore fay a word or two, that fhould make the whole clear beyond a poffibility of mifapprehenfion. His argument had not gone to the idea, that the whole of our navy would be out at sea at the fame time, but merely to prove that any thing that tended to give internal fecurity at home, fo as to enable our home fleet to be free to act as the occafions of war might require, was extremely eligi gible, and fit to be adopted. He would elucidate what he meant, by putting a cafe that fhould make his meaning obvious to his Right Hon. Colleague, and to every man prefent. If the enemy's fleet fhould come to the mouth of the channel with a view to intercept and capture our merchantmen, as they either failed home from the East and West Indies, or on their way to both, would it not be admitted that we ought to fend our home fleet to fight there? It would he imagined, be admitted on all hands, that we fhould. Suppofe then the enemy had previously ftationed a large body of troops on their coaft, with a view of feizing a fit opportunity of landing them on our ifland in or der to ftrike fome effectual blow, and when our home fleet came up to the enemy they fhould fail into the ocean; ought we in that cafe to follow them? He believed no body would deny that we ought; because if we did not, we immediately manifefted to all mankind, that this country could only maintain a defenfive war, and every body knew that a defensive war was what this country could never fupport. Then the cafe being fo circumfanced if our dock yards were fortified, the enemy would be checked upon their invañon, and our home fleet might ne verthelefs be away; under this confidera. ation it was, that he had voted for the propofed fyftem of fortifications laft Monday. Lord Hood fpoke of the opinion of the Land and Naval Officers, and faid, he had no doubt but their unanimous approbation of the plan of fortifications that had been fubmitted to them, arose from the like confideration. Captain Macbride denied, that the naval officers had unanimouly approved of that plan. They had he faid, been tricked into an appearance of granting their approbation of what in fact they did not approve. The Captain fta:ed the particu lars in which he thought himfelf entitled to complain, and faid the report was art. fully drawn, and the privifoes and objec tions fo tranfpofed as to make the naval officers feem to have changed their opinions. He declared farther, that having all along objected to the plan, when he came to the Horfe Guards, and was called on to fign, he objected, and faid, furely, his name ought not to appear as approving the plan; when he was told, if he did not fign, it would not appear that he had been of the board. There was he faid, a part of the plan that he approved highly, and that was, the introducing a fluice of fresh water into Plymouth dock yards, which would, he fuppofed, coft about 20,000l. and it would be highly useful. Mr. Baftard declared he knew fortifications of fome fort to be neceffary, and whenever a proper plan was propofed, that had been fairly fubmitted to a board of naval and military officers, and they really approved it, he should vote for that plan as fatisfactorily as he had voted against that of the noble Duke at the head of the Ordnance. Mr. Alderman Hammett pronounced an eulogium on the Duke of Richmond, and juftified the noble Duke's plan, for which he faid he had voted. That noble Duke, he declared, was as firm and zea. lous a friend to the conftitution, as any man living. He had great and fhining talents, and reflected luftre on every cabinet of which he was a member. Captain Luttrell anfwered to fome other points that had been touched on, and ad vifed vised Captain Macbride, who he faid had Jarely turned orator, not to imitate the example of chimney fweepers, and the loweft of the rabble, in calling names, and dealing out perfonal abufe when debating in that Houfe. Talking of the naval officers having been tricked out of their opinions by a noble Duke, a friend of his, was an infult to their understandings. Captain Macbride in reply faid, the Hon. Gentleman might reft affured he would not take him for his pattern. Captain Luttrell faid a word or two in anfwer. Mr. Dempfier lamented exceedingly that he should fee an Ordnance Eftimate amount to fo large a fum in time of peace. He declared he had taken the trouble to examine the Ordnance Estimates voted for many years past. That from the peace of Utrecht to the next war, the amount had been no more than ninety one thoufand pounds a year, and from the peace of Aix la Chapelle, to the American war, diftinguifhed by Mr. Pitt's glorious conduct of it, the estimate had never rifen above one hundred and ten thoufand, or thereabouts. He ftated alfo what it had amounted to from the peace of Paris, till the la& moft unfortunate American war; and then ftated the amount of the Ordnance during the Duke of Marlborough's wars, in the reign of Queen Anne, fhewing, that the Estimate at this day, a day of profound peace, was higher in amount than it was in the Duke of Marlborough's wars He condemned the voting 2000 additional feamen this year, and faid, we ought to be rigidly deconomical, now we had no enemy to cope with, but the 3 per cents. the 4 per cents. the long annuities, and other funds. He advised the Minister to wage a warm and vigorous war against those enemies, Captain Berkeley adverted to what had fallen in the debate on the Fortifications from General Burgoyne, who had faid, he would defend this country, by having an Auftrian army on the banks of the Rhine. Captain Berkeley faid, whatever alliances we made, of courfe they would contain ftipulations obligatory upon us in return for the matter ftipulated on their part to perform in our behalf. He adverted to the barrier treaty, in which the Dutch had engaged to build forts for the Emperor, and asked whether we would build forts in Holland if we were told it was un conftitutional? The tendency of his argument went to prove that it was more easy to talk of alliances than to form them, and that fortifying our Dock Yards would have infured us fecurity without pledging us to perform services for allies that might prove extremely inconvenient. Mr. Alderman Sawbridge, faid, no man had entertained a higher opinion of the œconomy of the noble Duke, and of his zeal to preferve the freedom of election; he was forry, therefore, to be under the neceffity of accufing him of grofs wafting of the public money, and a perfect attempt to fubvert the freedom of election thefe charges, however, he would undertake to prove. Mr. Sawbridge then stated, that there were certain vessels belonging to Queenborough, that were employed by the Ordnance in carrying stores. That thefe vefleis coft Government a great deal annually, full 1500l. a year; and that during Lord Townshend's prefiding at the Board of Ordnance, a scheme was projected to employ three hoys instead of these veffels, by which an amazing faving would be effected. In fact the whole expence would be redused to 600l. That the plan was ordered to be adopted, when the late Miniftry were difmiffed; but that the Noble Duke had continued the veffels ever fince. This, he faid, gave the Board of Ordnance an election influence at Queenborough, infomuch that laft election one candidate declared, he had been fent down by the Navy Board, while another faid, he came from the Board of Ordnance. In corroboration of these facts, the Alderman read a letter, ftating them from a morning paper of Monday fortnight, which, he faid, was written by a friend of his. Captain Luttrell answered, by ftating, that the facts contained in the letter printed were in part true, but it did not tell the whole of the story. It was true that Captain Dick fon had reported to Lord Townfend, that the public would reap advantage from carrying stores by three hoys, instead of by the four veffels called the Townfend, the Conway, the Ligonier, and the Frederick; but he had omitted to report what they would fell for, and what the three hoys would coft. That had however been done fince, and it appeared the four old veffels might be worth 350l. a piece, but the boys would coft nigol. each. For this reafon the project had been abandoned. With regard to the élection influence, that food exactly the |