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thought and faid on the fubject; that Hon. Gentleman had, however, been fince favoured with an opportunity of reducing his theory to practice in Port Praya Bay, and therefore, he would fay no more on that fubject. The Captain then returned to his argument, to prove the folly of putting the nation to a heavy charge for repairing fuch fhips as the lift in his hand contained. There were among them feveral fhips, that were known to be bad fhips, and not worth repairing. He inftanced the Afia and Solitaire, and faid, if a war fhould take place, thofe fhips, and feveral others would be found to be of very httle fervice. To what purpofe was it then to repair fuch fhips, as would endanger the lives of the officers and feamen, many hundreds of whom had been facrificed laft war, by being fent to fea in bad fhips Another thing against our Navy was, that the French 74 gun fhips were 2000 tuns burthen, while our 74's had been reduced to 1600 tons. If the Ad. miralty would build 74 gun fhips equal to thofe of the French, the Captain faid, he was perfuaded the officers and men would do their duty and the country would be well ferved. In a 64 gun fhip the Commander who met a 74 was well off if he escaped capture. He particularly inftanced the benefit of failing with the jower tier out, and faid he faw an honourable friend of his (Lord Mulgrave) whom he had often passed and envied last war, in confequence of obferving him proudly carrying his lower tier out at the time that he dared not fhew a fingle gun of that tier. After more obfervations in proof of the fuperior policy of having the Navy confit of large rather than Imall fized fhips, Captain Macbride fat down expreffing a hope that he fhould either hear a good reason for voting the prefent estimate, and adhering to the prefent practice of repairing fmall fized fhips at a large expence, or that the practice would be abandoned.

Mr. Drake, jun. rofe to afk if the money received for the fale of the materials of old and condemned fhips, and old ftores, after the fhips were broken up, were brought to any account, in favour of the publick By the prefent eftimates it appeared that the publick was debtor to their amount, he wifhed therefore to know how the credit fide of the account ftood, and he put the queftion then, as it was well known a vast number of ships had been broken up fince the war ended.

Mr. Brett affured the Hon. Gentleman, that the fums received for old materials and old ftores were regularly paid over to the Treasurer of the Navy, and put by him to the account of the public, and applied to Naval fervices, in like manner as any other money, that came into the hands of the Treafurer of the Navy, was applied. Mr. Brett faid that accounts of the monies received for old ftores up to given periods had frequently been called for, and laid upon the table, and that there was no fort of referve upon the fubject.

Captain James Luttrell, in reply to Captain M'Bride, entered pretty fully into a detail of the ufe of frigates and fmall fhips, which he defired his honourable friend to recollect were of effential ufe to this country, being principally employed for the purposes of commerce. deed, it was fcarcely poffible to carry on commerce without them. He mentioned the

In

extreme difficulty of keeping a large convoy of merchantmen tolerably together at any rate; and faid, without frigates it would be abfolutely impoffible to do it. There were other fervices for which frigates and small ships were peculiarly adapted, and therefore while we had occafion for fuch ships, and we had a number of them, it would be madness not to keep them in repair and fit for fervice. He fubmitted it to his honourable friend's candour, whether it was not rather the province of the first Lord of the Admiralty than of that House to direct what claffes of fhips fhould be repaired and kept in order for fervice. The Noble Lord now at the head of the Board every body knew was as correct a judge of the fubject as any Naval Officer, nor was he lefs of a statefman than feaman. The country therefore might truft the management of the Navy fafely in his Lordship's hands, and his Honourable Friend might reft affured, proper and useful fhips only would be repaired and employed."

Captain M Bride rofe again and maintained his former argument, that 74 gun fhips were the fized fhips we ought to build and that it would be founder policy to let most of thofe that were in the eftimates this year, rot and tumble to pieces, than to lay out eleven thousand pounds on the repair of one, and fifteen thousand on that of another. (Seeing Sir Charles Middleton enter the Houfe) The Captain faid he faw a Gentleman then in his place, to whom he wifhed to fay a fet

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a few words and that upon a different topick, though a topick relative to the navy. What he meant, was to learn, if it was intended to perfevere in the abfurd fyftem of fuffering the fhips to remain in their coppered bottoms during the whole of the peace? If that matter was intended, it would not be long before there would be no occafion to argue whether one fized fhip or another fhould be built, for we should have no navy to fend to Sea. The Captain expatiated on the mischievous effects of fuffering the fhips to remain coppered in ftill water. He faid the copper corroded, and eat more into their bottoms, than worms or time. The confequence would be, that the inftant thips which had long lain by, were fent to fea, their bottoms would drop out, and thousands of brave lives would be fwallowed in the deep. It was, he faid a mistaken notion, that coppered bottom fhips did not get foul; they were as foul after laying by a time, as fhips that were not fheathed with copper. The old custom was to take the fhips into dock annually and triennially, and let them have their trimmings. When that praetice was followed,our fhips were kept in good order and condition, and if the coppered were not looked to, they would be ruined. He mentioned that Admiral Barrington and he had together examined a coppered fhip, under repair, and that they found the bolts corroded and eat away, notwithftanding the prevailing idea, that they would not corrode. The evil to be dreaded from the neglect stated by him, appeared to be of so serious a nature, that he thought, if fomething were not done immediately to prevent it, an enquiry ought to be commenced in that Houfe, and the facts that he had stated ascertained.

The nation would then fee its danger. The French, he declared, had difcovered the folly of the practice, and had for fome time left off fheathing their fhips with copper. We ought to do the fame, or at leaft to take off the copper, when the hips were to lie long in ftill water, and put it on when they were wanted to be fent to fea. A fhip might be fheathed with copper in a tide, and therefore no time would be loft. What he had faid, whatever gentlemen who were not profeffional men might think of it, was of infinite importance; he hoped, therefore, he thould have an anfwer from the Gentleman oppofite to him, and should be glad to find, that contractors had not

yet got entire hold of office, and perfundi ed them to be fo fond of idle and new fangled fchemes, 2s to be wilfe blind to the fatal confequences the might enfue.

Captain Levefon Gower reminded bi Hon Friend that sheathing fhips with cop per was a new matter, that it had not bee introduced above ten years; it was there fore as yet in experiment, but he did affor his Hon. Friend, it was watched with the utmost caution, and its effects obferved and guarded against with all poffible as tention.

Sir Charles Middleton declared, that he had no intereft or concern whatever in he fheathing ships with copper; that it wa cuftomary, whenever any propofal offered, for it to come before the Navy Board, and if they approved it, it was re ferred to the yards to know if it were practicable in the opinion of the workmen It then came back to the Navy Board with the report of the proper officer, and it was afterwards fent to the Admiralty for them confideration, and if they approved of it was acceded to, and put in execution. If his Hon. Friend nad called at the office, or made private application to him, he would have given him every information in his power; but he had not expected to have fuch a matter agitated in that House, and if his honourable friend would reconfider the subject, he was perfuaded, be would be of opinion, that the House of Commons was by no means a fit place for fuch difcuffions."

Captain Luttrell rofe again and faid, however much his honourable friend and he might have differed about the size of fhips fit to be repaired, or about fortifications; his honourable friend had not faid a fyllable upon the subject of copperbottomed fhips, to which he did not fully fubfcribe, and in which he would not go along with him. That matter was a mat ter of most serious confequence; a quel tion infinitely more important than the question of fortifications; the propofed fortification plan would have co the nation 700,000l, or at moft a million; but if the mischiefs followed that his honourable friend had ftated as likely to be the fatal confequence of fuffering our navy to remain in their copper kettles, the expence would be many mil lions; the whole Navy of England was at ftake. It was therefore of the firft ›mportance, that it should be enquired into,

because

because what was the refult? either the whole navy was fafe and found, or the complete reverfe was the cafe. Let Gentlemen weigh the matter for a moment in their minds, and they would, he doubted not, be of opinion, that it ought to be enquired into. He therefore coincided with his Hon. Friend, but thinking with him as he did, and willing as he thould be to institute an enquiry, he would not agree to inftitute one in that House im. mediately. He should advife that the matter be left to the executive government, and to that government, and to that department to which it properly belonged, and he had not the smallest doubt that due attention would be paid to it. But if it was not, and the fyftem of fuffering the fhips to remain in their copper kettles were continued, he would next year join tia moving for a Parliamentary enquiry.

Captain M'Bride rofe again in order to affert his right as a member of Parliament to fay in his place what he had before thrown out; nor would he by any means admit, that it was a fair anfwer to him, or to any other gentleman who agitated a matter fo effentially interefting to the nation, as the future well-being and even the future existence of the Navy, for any perfon in office, to refer them to office, or to fay, "why did not you ask me in private?" That was the fit place to talk upon fuch fubjects, and there he would talk of them, whenever a proper occafion offered. Mr. Drake faid, he meant no difrefpect to the Hon. Baronet for whom there was not a Gentleman prefent who had a higher refpect; but he must say, if fuch anfwers were to be given upon matters, fo interesting in their nature, to Gentlemen of that Houfe, which was the tutelary guardian of the public purf, the true interpretation of the Hon. Baronet's language was "I office demand; you, the public pay."

Captain Levefon Gower repeated his declaration that the coppering fhips was as yet an experiment, and that its effects were duly watched. In answer to what his honourable friend Capt. Macbride had faid in preference of 74 gun fhips to 64's, he declared, the argument came rather oddly from his honourable friend, who laft war, commanded a 64 Gun fhip, and had been offered a 74, which he declined accepting.

Captain M Bride faid it was very true, and he would tell the House the reafon. His crew in the 64 were all men that he

had recruited; as brave a fet of hands as ever failed; they liked him, and he liked them, because he knew, he could depend upon them; if he could have been permitted to have taken them with him into the 74 gun fhip, that had been offered him, he would gladly have accepted the fhip, but as he was not allowed to do that, he chofe to ftay with his men in the fixty-four.

Captain Berkeley faid, the quickfilver in his honourable friend's barometer, was apt to rife rather too high, when he got up to fpeak in that House, and generally reached extreme heat. He thought it had got to that point then, in regard to what he had faid of copper-bottomed fhips. Captain Berkeley faid, he dared take upon him to affert, that his honourable friend had not previously applied to office up the fubject; if he had, he was perfuaded he would have met with an handsome reception, would have been heard with attention, and every poffible fatisfaction afforded him. There was a matter in his mind exceedingly well worth attention, befides what his honourable friend had faid, and that was the builth of ships. We were not only in point of policy to build fhips of the fame fize as those that conftituted the Navy of France, but we neceffarily must build them fo as to adapt them to the depth of water of our own harbours. For his part he wished extremely, that the Navy Board, instead of trufting merely to the Surveyors of the Navy, would imitate the example of France, and give premiums for the best drafts of men of war. He meant the best plans in point of fize, tonnage, &c. &c. &c. this would give the board the advantage of all the ingenuity of the kingdom, as well as the judgment of the Navy Surveyors, and he heartily wished that fome able contriver could fhew how a 74 gun fhip, that drew no more water than a 64 could be built. If fuch a plan could be found, it would be an effential national advantage. Indeed, the construction of our fhips in general ought to be more particularly attended to. He owed it to the valour of an Hon. Gentleman, then in his eye, (Sir John Jarvis) to whom he was indebted for his naval education, that he commanded at this time, one of the fineft ships in the British Navy. That ship was a proof how much better our enemies fhips were built than ours were; and also how much better the materials were. He faid, he heartily wifhed all the

fhips in the British Navy were equally excellent.

Mr. Hopkins faid a few words to inform the Houfe what hips had lately been built, and that among a great number of new ones built or building, only two of the whole were 64 gun fhips.

Mr. Sloper faid as it was on all hands agreed, that coppering the bottoms of fhips was an experiment, he thought the experiment ought to be tried on a few fhips only, and not on the whole Navy

at once.

Mr. M. A. Taylor gave notice that he fhould on Tuefday next move for leave to bring in a Bill, to extend an Act of the laft Seffions, refpecting Courts of Confcience, in order to make it general throughout England.

The question was put and carried.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thurfday March 2, 1786.

NAVY ESTIMATES. Mr. Gilbertbrought up the Report of the Refolutions of the Committee of Supply on the Navy Eftimates, which were read a first time and agreed to; and when the question was put, that they be read a fecond

time,"

Sir John Jervis role, and alluded to the converfation of the preceding day, on the fubject of reparing fixty-fours, &c. and coppering and uncoppering the fhips of the royal Navy. He faid, his Hon. friend Captain Macbride had been mifunderfood and miftated. That his Hon. Friend had not been defirous of destroying or breaking up fo effential a part of the maritime force of the country as all our fixty gun fhips, but had merely faid that when fixty fours of bad character were fet down in repair in the Estimates laid on the table, and very Jarge fums, fuch as 18oool. for one 11,000l. for another, were required for the repair, that it would be wifer to break up thofe fhips, and add a few more 10ools. to the money, and build new fhips in their fead. Sir John faid, he would tell the House the manner in which the Estimates for repairs were ufually made out; a proper perfon went down from the Navy Board, to the feveral yards, and there the furveyor or his deputies, who were or ought to be experienced fhip-wrights, went to the veffel and tafted her as the technical phrafe was, which was performed by boring holes in feveral different parts

of the fhip, and then infpecting the wood brought out in the auger; if the wood fo brought out was found, an S. was marked over the hole; if the wood in the auger was rotten, an R was put over the hole, and then the proper officer came and caft up the number of S's and the number of R's and according as the one or the other predominated the ship was pro nounced found, rotten, very found, very rotten, &c. &c. and upon the strength of that Report, the hip was claffed under its peculiar head of thips to be repaired. The mifchief Captain Jervis faid was, that fometimes inftead of the tafting being performed by a fkilful and judicious fhipwright, his two apprentices went to the fhip and tafted her, and in confequence of their ignorance or inattention and neglect, very grofs mistakes were committed. He inftanced two extraordinary cafes, the first was that of the Prince man of war, which was adjudged fo rotten, that fhe was ordered to be broken up; but when he was breaking up, and the coats of her sheathing, &c. were taken off, her frame was found to be as found and good as poflible; nay, in fuchrexcellence of heart was the wood, that it actually turned the edges of the work mens tools as he faw himself, for he was an eye witnefs of it. This being fo unexpected, the Commiflioner was told of the circumftance, who when he faw it, ordered the workmen to stop their hands, and fent up word to the Navy Board, defiring to know what he fhould do, when an angry antwer was immediately returned, in which the Commillioner was blamed for having acted contrary to his orders, and the fhip was ordered to be finished breaking up immediately. Sir John faid he meant to blame no individual, nor any board whatever, but fuch was the fact. He would ftare another directly the reverse: a ship was under repair at Mr. Wells's up the river. When the workmen had got her stripped they found her fo very rotten, that Mr. Wells like an honeft man, fent word of it to the Navy Board, acquainting them that the fhip, when repaired would not be worth the money the repair would coft. Having ftated thefe facts, Sir John adverted to what had been faid, the preceding day, relative to the fuffering fhips to remain in their copper, and declared, that if he heard of any hips having been fent out, that had long been coppered, without having been very carefully examined and attended to previous to her

failing,

Failing, he would complain of it to the
Houfe.

Captain Macbride thanked his honourable friend for having fet right the mifconceptions of thofe who had mifunderfood him. What he meant was exactly what his honourable friend had stated, not to break up good 64 gun fhips, but fuch only as had a bad character, and would require a very heavy expence to repair. Captain M Bride infenced the old Afia, that had colt an extremely large fum, and after one voyage only, again wanted a new repair.

Mr. Brett, made a fhort Speech, but under a misconception of Captain Macbride's meaning. Captain Macbride explained-and Mr. Hulley faid a few words in refpect to the tafting of fhips, and the jealousy that every Navy eftimate ought to create in that Houfe. He expreffed a hope, that the Captain (whom he greatly praifed)would purfue the enquiry he had pledged himself to bring forward. Captain Macbride anfwered that he understood a measure was in contemplation that would fuperfede the neceffity for the enquiry he had talked of, but the Hon. Gentleman might reft affured, he would never be found worfe than his word. Captain Levefon Gower faid a word or two, and the refolutions were read a fecond time and agreed to.

REVENUE.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave notice, that on Tuesday next, he should move that feveral of the papers on the fubject of the national income, that were delivered, be fubmitted to the confidera tion of a committee of the whole Houfe.

TURBOT AND LOBSTER FISHERIES.

The Houfe having refolved itfelf into a Committee of the whole Houfe, Mr. M. A. Taylor in the Chair,

Mr. Beaufoy faid, that he had a propofition to make under the fanction of a Committee, that had fat for the purpofe, of which he had the honour to be Chairman, which he believed would appear to be materially conducive to the deareft interefts of this country-her maritime Atrength. They had examined many witneffes, and on the refult of their in

quiries the refolutions he should move were founded. The Dutch had monopolifed a certain bank of the fisheries of this country, which of all others they were the leaft entitled to-the Turbot fifhery. They came firft to our coafts, nay even into our rivers, and caught the bait, they went to their own coafts, and took the fish; from thence they returned to our capital where they difpofed of their cargoes for ready money. In this trade they employed from 60 to So veffels, and from 600 to 800 feamen; it was his object to transfer this trade, fo important, as well in a commercial, as a naval point of view, from Holland, always our rivals and fometimes our enemies, to this country; by which we fhould increase our nursery, for failors, confine a confiderable fum of money in the country, and deprive the Dutch of a conftant opportu nity of making themfelves acquainted with our harbours. For this purpote he fhould propofe to lay a duty amounting nearly to a prohibition on all Dutch fishing boats, navigating the River Thames, and allow a bounty to all British veffels bringing turbot to the London market;. this bounty he would not have continue for above five years, and to prevent a violent fhock being felt by that trade from. a fudden withdrawing of the bounty, he would have that bounty decrease in a cer-, tain proportion from the firft to the third year, in order to prevent our fhips from purchafing fish from the Dutch fishermen, and thereby lofing to this country one part of the advantage refulting from the tifhery, the taking of the fifh; he would alfo fuperadd a premium for the four veffels that fhould bring in the greatest quantity of marketable fith, by which means each matter of a veffel fhould be a check upon the reft. He also obferved that the bait for cod and turbot (lampreys and lamperns) had become unaccountably fcarce in the Thames, where only they are to be had, and where they used to a-. bound most plentifully; he fhould there-, fore propofe a regulation to prevent the exporting of them, except in fuch quantities as were abfolutely neceffary for the confumption and ufe of our own fishermen. He obferved that the only bad, confequence he had ever heard apprehend-. ed from thefe regulations was, that they might induce the Dutch to prohibit us from fifhing on their coafts fo turbotbut for his own part he should be happy

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