cifely, much detail of argument was not tion which had that day been taken relaneceifary, after he had unanfwerably tive to the different perfons who were eftablished that the cafe alluded to in the fuppofed to form the oppofition to the words often recurred to "under the cir- prefent plan. He had heard the old in"cumflance of the data," was literally finuations of party vietos reforted to by this, the abfence of the whole British thofe who defended the original motion; "fleet for the space of three months, and fome gentlemen who had moft ftrenu"while an armyof thirty or forty thoufand oufly oppofed it, had, however, in a "men was ready on the enemy's coaft to kind of language, which he could not "invade this country, that enemy to avoid taking notice of, difivowed any "chule their point of landing, to land party feeling or connection with the party "and encamp with heavy artillery, and alluded to. For his own part, .. was "every neceffary for a fiege, while no happy that the business had worn fo linde "force in Great Britain was to be col- the appearance of party as it had; and "lected in lefs than two months to op- though he had moved for and obtained "pose them." Having preffed this to the report, which had been fo much difthe utmof, he then denied, that even cuffed, and upon which fo much had taking it for granted that the enemy fould turned. he had been ready and anxious decide to affault no part but Portfimouth as the perfons alluded to knew, to reign and Plymouth, that politely hoftile he the bufirefs into the hands of the respect fhould fcorn to ftrike a blow at the heart able Gentlemen who had that day foably of the empire, but in the courtly (pirit of brought it forward. He could never, a French Duclift, fhould aim only to however, for one, fubmit to the impurawound in the fword-arm; that even then tion that the party, with whom he had he denied that thefe only objects provided the honour to act, were fupporting or for, could be faid to be effectually fecur- oppofing any mealuie, upon motives lefs ed. For fift, it was not made out, that juft, lefs fair, or lefs honourable, than the enemy might not land or march to the thofe which influenced any other defcripeastward of Plymouth where no defence tion of Gentiemea in that Houfe. was pretended; and fecondly, the whole prefent queftion could not even be prequeftion turning upon a fuppofition of tended to be purfuted with party policy, our being inferior at fea; in that cafe a as there was not a perfon in the Houle, prefumption of the fafe return of the in- that must not acknowledge that party ferior fleet, and its beating the fuperior purpose would be better gratified by enfleet, was the fole refource for the rehef tangling the Right Hon. Gentleman in of the befieged dock yards, whose defence the pursuit of this obnoxious and unp 'pwas exprefsly stated in the Report, to be ular fcheme;-but the Gentlemen who calculated only as against the force, and for had that day led the oppolition to it, had the time expreffed in the data; fo that been withed to take that had, because it the enemy having it obviously in his appeared among the most effectual means power while mafter of the fea, to recruit of warding off an injury from the coun his own army, as well as to keep the try; otherwife to be inlifting under leadother expofed parts of this kingdom iners for the day, or courting the temporary check and alarm, and thereby to prevent the poffibility of our affembling and uniting a force fufficient to raife the fiege, it followed, that if either the enemy's army exceeded the number fuppofed, or the time was prolonged beyond the period calculated, the whole of this effectual Lecurity vanifhed under their own reafoning, and we fhould merely have prepared a ftrong hold in the country for our foe, a hold which the circumstances under which he was fuppofed to make the attack, would enable him for ever to retain. Having fummed up the general heads of his arguments, M. Sheridan concluded with fome obfervations on the dutine The affiance of any defcription of Gentlemen, would, in his opinion, be a conduct as impolitick as undignified. On the other hand, to recede from a by important conteft, becaufe Gentlemen unconnected with them were likely to have the credit of the event, would defervedly caft on them the reproach of being a faction and not a party. But this was not their con duct---they could defend their fituation upon fyftem and principle; however reduced their ranks, they were more defircus to prove they were in the right than to mercafe their numbers. He was confident, however, the Gentlemen he might be fuppofed to allude to, were too liberal to fet a lefs value, on their fupport that day before because it was unaccompanied by adulation, or any endeavour to canvafs for their future connection. Let us faid Mr. Sheridan, this night be firmly embodied in a caufe we equally approve. Let us do this great fe vice to the country; then feparate, and feck eppofing camps. Let them return with the double triumph, if they will, of having conferred an important benefit on their conftituents and the nation, and a re-l'obligation on the Government. Let them have the credit with the country of having defeated the Minifter's measure and the merit with his friends, of having refcued him from a perilous dilemma. Leave us only the fi'ent fatisfaction, that without envying the reputation of thofe we were content to follow, without being piqued by infinuations against our motives, and without debaring whether the Minister might not be ferved by our fuccefs, we gave an earnest and zealous affifiance in defeating a mɩafure, which under the fpecious pretence of fecuring our coafts, ftrikes at the root of our great national defence, and at the heart of the conftirution itfelf. Mr. Fox faid, his Hon. Friend had gone fo fully into the whole of the subject, and had argued it fo clofely, that it was unneceffary for him to take up much of the time of the Houfe. He would therefore fpeak only to a few points, fo perto nal to himfelf, that the Houfe he conceived would think it highly neceflary for him to take fome notice of them. The Right Hon. Gentleman, he obferved, had pretty ftrongly infinuated that the fyftem of Fortification now in contemplation, was a part of that identical fyftem that he (Mr. Fox) had when in office propofed to the Houte. This was not by any means a correct reprefentation of the fact, for in truth, he never had propofed any plan of Fortification whatever, but in the Ordnance Eftimates of the year 1783, a fpecifick fum was asked for the purpole of going on with Fort Monkton, and anoother fmall fort which had been begun; but a demur arifing upon the fubject, he, had agreed in the committee to take the two charges out of the Eftimate and referve them for future confideration, and the remaining part of Eftimate was voted without them. Mr. Fox concurred in opinion with great part of Colorel Barre's argument, declaring that the Right Hon. Gentleman had well faid that it was not by fortifying Portfmouth and Plymouth merely, that we were to look for a defence of the kingdom from invavafion or from dangerous attack; undoubtedly there were other vulnerable parts of our coaft, that required attention as well as thofe propofed to be fortified. He took notice of what had fallen from Mr. Pitt on the fubje&t of the peace, and of the manner in which Colonel Barry had taken offence at it. He denied that it had been either a neceffary, or a great and glorious Peace, declaring, that, in the relative ftate of this kingdom at the time compared with the ftate of other powers, we had a right to expect a much more advantageous treaty. If, however, it had been great and glorious, thofe who had been in office, and had a fhare in making it, had divided the rewards of it in a fingularly ftriking manner. For themfelves they had taken places and emoluments, and left the person who was supposed to have been the principal negociator of it in full poffeffion of all the encomiums that the warmest of his panegyrifts could bestow. But "eafe and praife," faid Mr. Fox, are the true objects of genuine ambition. Thefe they have liberally beftowed on the noble Lord (Lanflown) these substantial recompences, thefe folid honours, have . they nobly fecured to him, in his favourite retirement, in his fequeftered happinefs, in ruftic peace, and undisturbed repofe! For themfelves, on the contrary, have they not referved all the cares, the anxieties, the fatigues, the folicitations, and the emoluments of office? Generous partition!-fubftantial fame for their patron, mere official reward for themselves! 'Tis the extreme of abfurdity to fuppofe on party confiderations the carrying the propofed amendment, can be an object of the flighteft eftimation. Who is there imagines that I or my friends fhall be one fep neafer the acquifition of office or of power, whether the Duke of Richmond's Fortification plan fucceeds or fails? If defeating the Minifter, even in points which he has unequivocally fupported to the utmost of his power, could have ferved us in a party light, how came it, that notwithstanding the numerous defeats he has endured, he continues unfhaken, or even more firm than ever? Has the whole failure of the Irish Pròpofitions in the leaft affected him as a Minifter? Did his fhameful defeat in ths Westminster fcrutiny either prejudice him, or ferve me, in a minifterial light? Did his abandonment of the Manchetter Tax take take an atom from his confequence? The fact is, he is a Minifter who thrives by defeat, and flourishes by difappointment. The country gentlemen oppofe him on one occafion, only to give him more trength on another; he is beat by them. on one fubject, only to be affifted by them in a fucceeding one; if he falls by the landed intereft to-day, he is fure to rife by them to-morrow, with added energy and recruited vigour." Mr. Fox purfued this animated strain for fome time. He then reminded the Houfe, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had, as ufual, had recourfe to his machinery in his opening fpeech. He had drawn into his argument the American war, and the coalition. He was a little furprifed, that the poor India Bill had efcaped. Thefe topicks, however, the Right Hon. Gentleman might bring for ward as often as he thought proper. No part of his conduct was he ashamed of, and though clamour artfully raised, and induftriously kept alive, might for a while put a falfe and injurious conftruetion upon it, time would diffipate the cloud of prejudice, and convince all men how egregiously they had been duped, and deluded. Before he clofed his fpecch he avowed, that he retained all his great party principles on conftitutional queftions: and that it was that circumftance that formed the line between him and the Right Hon Gentleman. "I fiand, says he, on this great principle. I fay the people of England have a right to controul the executive power, by the interference of their reprefentatives in this Houfe of Parliament. The Right Hon. Gentleman maintains the contrary. He is the caufe of our political cnmity; to this I adhere; to this I pledge myself, and on this ground I mean to vote for the amendment." 66 tem. Lord North took notice of the allufion that had been made to Lord Sandwich by Captain Berkley, who had talked of the curfed management of the Navy during the late war, and faid, though the American war was by no means a fubject that came within the purlieu of the original motion, or of the amendment, he fhould not have the fmalleft objection to meet the Hon. Gentleman on that topick, whenever he thought proper to bring it forward; when he did so, however he might differ from the opinion of many gentlemen on the other fide of the House, (from fome he faw oppofite to him, he believed he thould not differ widely); and however he might even differ from his Right Hon. Friend, and many Hon. Gentlemen who fat near him, he should contend and maintain that no fault had been imputable to any mifconduct, or mifmanagement of his Noble Friend, who at that time fat at the head of the Admiralty Board, but that every ill fuccets had arifen from the nature of the war, from the neceffary divifion of our marine force, and from the powerful combination of maritime ftrength with which Great Britain had to contend. His Lordship concluded with declaring that he fhould vote for the amendment. Mr. Dundas replied to Lord North, and faid, it was with a view to meet the objections ftated by the Noble Lord, that the fyftem of Fortifications then under confideration had been propofed. It was by that Houfe's laving down a regular and permanent fyftem that should be abided by, that an end would be put to the expenfive practice that had prevailed of indulging one Mafter General' of the Ordnance with this plan, and another General with that, and so on, pulling down and abandoning as fast as Fortifications were erected. Mr. Dundas ftrenuously recommended the propofed system on the fame grounds of argument as had been enforced with fo much eloquence by his Right Hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and faid, a mode of defence that would give fecurity to our Dock Yards, and preferve the vital fources of our navy from the danger of being deftroyed during any future war, was an ob ject in his mind of fo much value and importance, that 700,cool. or even a million of money, as fome gentleman had stated it, would be a cheap price to pay the purchase. The queftion was, would the House go to that expence for the attainment of an ob ject for immediately connected with the future exiftence of our Navy, or not? To fuch a question he fhould not imagine any man in his fenfes, who was not misled by prejudice, could hefitate a moment to reply in the affirmative. He relied a good deal on the opinion of the Board of Officers, who, he contended had delivered it as their unanimous opinion, not only that fuch a fyftem of Fortifications was abfolutely neceffary, but that it was that particular plan, that could be erected at the fmallett expence, and would require the feweft foldiers to man. Mr. Wyndam faid, Mr. Dundas had argued the queftion fairly, and that he was the only Speaker in favour of the propofed fyftem, that had put it on its right ground. The queftion fhortly was this: Here is a plan of Fortification proposed, and it will coft 700,000l.—will the House, or will it not agree to pay that price for it? Mr. Wyndham having fo ftated the matter in iffue, between the two fides of the House, proceeded to prove by argument, that the Houfe would act unwifely and imprudently, if they accepted the bargain, on the terms propofed. He reafoned against Fortifications in general as an infecure and dangerous means of defence, and as that of all others, the moft unfit for us to adopt, Spem pro pretio emere, ridiculum eft, was he said, an established maxim, but mortem et periculum pro pretio emere, ridiculum eft, was ftill more undeniable, and therefore he should vote for the amendment, on the ground that to pay 700,000l. for Fortifications, would be to lavish fo much of the public money, for the purchase of alarm and danger. Mr. H. Phipps, Mr. Wilberforce, and Mr. Martin laid in their claim to be heard another opportunity, the two former profelfed themselves warm friends to the motion; the latter declared that nothing the Right Hon. Gentleman had faid, had convinced him that the Fortifications proposed ought to be adopted in preference to the encouragement of our Navy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer apologized for defiring to be heard again, after having taken up fo much time of the Houle, but prefumed the Houfe, late as it was, would not refufe their wonted indulgence, especially after they had heard fo much, that made a reply from him indefpenfibly neceffary. He then with great rapidity and equal energy of argument, went over the feveral heads of objections that had been urged to the motion, and contended that the question was clearly a naval question, and that it had been made appear, in his mind unanfwerably, that if the plan were adopted, a finaller army eftablishment would be neceffary, than had hitherto been kept up. He paid Mr. Sheridan's fpeech particular attention, calling it, (as indeed it well deserved to be called) a most able and ingenious argument, and applying much, of what he faid, to do away the impreffion that gentleman's reafoning muft have made. He met the fuggeftions of the member for Hereford, and of Colonel Barre, (that his heart was not with the business, and that he was not fincere in his good wishes towards it) with a degree of indignation, the infallible evidence of innocence. He faid, the first gentleman as a new member, and evidently not much used to pub-, lic fpeaking, was excufable for having mentioned the report he had heard, but that report was wholly ill-founded; he was however, greatly hurt at hearing such a report hazarded within those walls; and he had been ftill more aftonished, when he heard fomething fall from a Right Hon. Gentleman, whofe infirmity he was extremely concerned had forced him to withdraw, that looked like an infinuation darkly wrapped up, under the words, that his confcience had been furprized, which feemed to have been directly aimed at the fame end. He had only to fay, that he confidered both the one and the other, if the meaning he had affumed, really belonged to them, as founded in the black eft malignity and as highly injurious to his character. The chancellor ended with repeating his affurances that the propofed plan was inti mately connected with the future wellfare and profperity of the Navy; and that unlefs fome fuch plan was foon adopted, the country and that Houfe would have to lament, and to blame themselves for having rejected a measure fo much to the national advantage, and on which the prefervation of their liberties, and of the constitution it felf depended! The Gallery was cleared at feven this morning, and the Houfe immediately divided on the Motion, "that, the words propofed to be left out ftand part of the queftion." The numbers being equal, Mr. Speaker declared the Noes had it. The Houfe then adjourned, it being twenty minutes past Seven. we had taken the major part of the rest of that fize from them, and they built chiefly 74 gun fhips. Policy therefore dictated that we should keep pace with them, and imitate their example; if we had done fo before, and had kept more 74 gun fhips afloat laft war, he was perfuaded the country would at this time have been in a HOUSE OF COMMON S. very different fituation from that in which it 2. "That it is the opinion of this "Committee, that a fum not exceeding "eight hundred thousand pounds be "granted to his Majefty towards build"ings, re-buildings and repairs of ships "of war in his Majefty's yards, and "other extra works, over and above what are propofed to be done under the ❝ heads of wear and tear, and ordinary "for the year 1786." The faid refolutions were ordered to be reported this day. Captain M'Bride defired to call the attention of the Houfe for a few minutes, to a matter of confiderable national importance. He faw by the papers that were at that time on the table, that there were among the fhips to be repaired feveral frigates and fome fhips of 60 and 64 guns. This appeared to him to be a very impolitick plan of proceeding, as every profeffional man, knew that a 60 or 64 gun fhip was no match for a French 74, and our having fo many of the former, was the reafon of our having been worsted fo often when fingle British fhips met and encountered fingle French fhips, in the courfe of the last war. The French had now not above three or four 64 gun fhips; now ftood. He rose to complain, that the new fyftem of repairing fmall flips at an enormous expence was purfued; it was, he affured the House, a pernicious fyftem, and burthened the public with a heavy expence to no manner of purpofe. He faw in the lift, he held in his hand, a great number of frigates and fmall ships fet down to be repaired, the repairs of one was estimated at eleven thousand pounds, and of another at &fteen thousand. It would be much better to let them fall to pieces, and put a few more thousands to each fum, and build good seventy-four gun fhips in their place. He dilated on the fuperior merit of feventy-four gun frips over fmaller fized veffels, and faid he verily believed if the number of our fhips was reduced one third, the Navy of England would be one third the stronger. But for the fake of encreafing the patro nage of the Minister or of the Admiralty, the lift of fhips, and confequently of Captains was unneceffarily fwelled to an enormous amount. He had heard, that an officer, who had rapidly rifen to high com mand, had declared in that House (before he had the honour to have a feat there) that a feventy gun fhip and a frigate, or two of three frigates together, were an equal match for a French 74, or an 80 gun fhip. He was aftonished that no feaman, a Member of that Houfe, had rifen in his place to give him an anfwer at the time. If that Hon. Gentleman, who might now more properly be filed an Hon. Director, than a Commodore fhould ever again advance fuch a doctrine, and he should be prefent, he would affure the Houfe the Hon. Gentleman fhould not go without an anfwer, According to that Hon. Gentleman's doctrine, by the paper in his hand, he could make out matches for a small fleet of French 74 gun fhips, by oppofing fmall fhips and frigates to them, but agreeable to his own opinion, and he believed that of most of his brother officers, who had feen much fervice, a very few French 74 gun fhips would blow the whole lift out of the water. He wished the Hon. Director had been prefent to hear what he though: |