a reafonable and fair opinion for gentle- Mr. Fox rofe again, and faid, his Hon. Friend meant to have made the motion yesterday, but, it was well known he could not do it, as there was no Houfe; as to himself, he really had never read the report till it was printed; and therefore could not be a judge whether the papers now moved for, would be neceffary or not, before the report was delivered out to the members of that Houfe. As to what the Right Hon. Gentleman had faid, of his having at one time minifterially confidered and approved of the propofed fyftem of fortification, he would fay one thing, and the Right Hon. Gentleman might make the goft of it; it was this, that whatever opinion he might have lightly taken up at a former period upon any given subject. which at a diftance of time came to be more immediately under his confideration, and he after a fecond and maturer deliberation found reafon to think differently, he should never be ashamed of acknowledging that he had changed his mind. Mr. Courtenay faid, he rofe for a moment, and thould only obferve, that the paper might be refused, for better reasons, than any he had heard advanced that night; as the producing it would give the publick, or the Houfe, no very favourable impreffion of the accuracy, correctnefs, and principle on which the noble Duke had profecuted this important inveftigation. It would perhaps appear, that the Board of Naval and Land Officers had previously determined, that 22,000 men were amply fufficient for the defence of Portimouth and Plymouth, without their having any return of the military cftablishment before them; and confequently, without knowing whether fuch a number of troops could be fupplied. On the fame principle, they must have determined, by implication, on the ftrength of the military establishment in France; as they must have exactly ascertained the number of troops with which the supposed attack could poffibly be made; and againft which 22,000, in their opinion, would be an adequate defence and fecurity. Was it not, then, fomewhat extraordinary, that thefe two moft effential points were abfo lutely fixed by the noble Duke and the Board, though it was now admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that no return, even of the military force of this country, had been laid before them; ftill lets muft they have known of the capability of France for the expected attack. At length the Motion was amended, and made to comprehend the force of the kingdom in the years 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781, and 1782, with a specifick account of the diftribution of it, during the months of June and December. Colonel Norion moved for a return of the force ftationed at Portsmouth and Plv. mouth during the month of Auguft in the fame years. Mr. Sheridan moved for a Copy of the third Datum, the motion was refifted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the ground, that the House having addrefied his Majefty, and left it to his Majesty's d fcretion to lay fuch parts of the Report only before the Houfe as fhould appear proper to be made publick, it would be indecent adecent and improper to call for thofe arts that his Majefty, in his difcretion, ad thought fit to withhold. Mr. Sheridan faid, the objection was a urious one, to come from the mouth of a Minifter, who when the extracts had been granted, had exprefly told the Houfe, hat if when they came, they appeared deficient or not fufficiently fatisfactory, gentlemen might call for additional extracts. After a little fparring and a few perfonalities on both fides, the question was put and negatived. The Houfe rofe at EIGHT o'clock, it having been previously agreed, that the confideration of the Ordnance Eftimates, with the question of the Fortifications fhould go over to Monday next. pro pa Major Scott yesterday faid, that from the time the Right Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Burke) had moved for his papers, he had been very anxious for their duction, and had been twice at the India Houfe in order to learn when it was probable they would be prefented to the Houfe. He had been informed that morning that the greatest part of the pers were already prepared, and he would with to move that fuch, as were ready, fhould be prefented without any delay, that the House might have an early opportusity of perufing them. He could affure the Houfe that the only anxiety he felt was, to bring forward the business as quick as poffible, and that anxiety had been increased by his obferving what was doing out of doors, where the moft fcandalous mifreprefentations of what had been faid in that Houfe were made. He well knew that fuch mifreprefentations could have no effect upon the Houfe, on whofe juftice and impartiality he had the firmest reliance, but when falfe and injurious calumnies were afferted, and when thofe calumnies were imputed to a Member of that House, with a view of affecting the character of a man who had long held a very high office abroad, it was a matter of great importance, that no ftudied or unneceffary delay fhould be ufed, in bringing forward thofe charges, to fubftantiate which the papers were moved for. Major Scott then read an extract from a news-paper, purporting that Mr. Mr. Pye moved, that the Bill for reducing all the laws relating to the Militia into one Act of Parliament be committed for Wednesday fe'nnight. Mr. Rolle rofe, and expreffed a with that a longer time had been given, as he thought a Bill introducing a new fyftem with regard to the Militia, a matter of infinite importance, and a matter upon which the country ought to be confulted. The Affizes were, he obferved, coming on; it appeared therefore to be highly proper that the Bill fhould not be hurried through the Houfe, but that it should at leaft wait till after the Affizes were over, and the refpective Grand Juries had been allowed to pass their judgment upon it. He added, that he was not afhamed of meeting his conftituents, and confulting them as to their wishes upon great publick occafions; if the Bill were not to be urged on farther at prefent, he fhould have an opportunity of feeing his constituents, and knowing their fentiments, which he could not poffible make himself master of, if the Bill was to go to a Committee fo early. Mr. Pye faid, the Bill was not to be confidered as a new Bill, but merely as a Bill that reduced all the Militia laws into one act. There were alfo parts in the Bill that furely would meet with the approbation of the Houfe, as they went to favings; in particular a claufe enacting that the men fhould be ballotted for five years inftead of three. He hoped, therefore the Bill, which certainly contains very novel matter, would be allowed to ftand committed for Wednesday fe'nnight. Mr. Rolle rofe again and faid, the Hon. Gentleman had himself mentioned a circumftance of confiderable importance, and fufficient in his mind to induce the Houfe to agree to poftpone the commit ment ment of the Bill; he fhould therefore move by way of amendment, that the Bill be committed for the 3d of April. Mr. Rolle faid, he had, during the recefs, written to an Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him, to know what were to be the alterations in refpect to the Militia that were to be introduced into the Bill, and the Hon. Gentleman had written him in anfwer, that the Bill was not fufficiently digefted for him to ftate what they were; as therefore the Hon. Gentlemen who had undertaken to prepare the Bill, had fpent fo much time about the fubject, furely other country gentlemen ought to be permitted to have an opportunity of confidering the Bill maturely, and confulting their conftituents respecting it. Mr. Marfham declared it was true that the Hon. Gentleman had written to him, when he was in the country, and it was equally true that he had in return fent him word, that the whole of the Bill was not at that time digefted, but he had at the fame time informed him of the propofal to change the period of balloting the men for five years instead of three; the Hon. Gentleman, therefore, had been apprized of that circumstance, upon which he now feemed to lay fo much ftrefs, long enough to confult his conftituents refpecting it. Mr. Jolliffe declared, he felt much in clined to have feconded the Hon. Gentle man's motion, as the Bill in question was not only important in a general fenfe, but more particularly fo than any Bill that could be agitated, fince it concerned the intereft of every individual in the kingdom, The Bill, therefore, ought not to be hurried in its progrefs, but time fhould be given to the Grand Juries who would be convened at the enfuing aflizes to fee the Bill, and form an opinion upon it; fo that, if the people thought proper, they might inftruct their reprefentatives upon the fubject, and the Houfe in their decifion upon it might act agreeably to the known fenfe of the country. The propofal to ballot the men for five years inftead of three, and the propofal to call out the Militia annually, were points upon which he was not perfectly decided, but fhould declare his fentiments, when the proper time for fo doing fhould come. In the mean time he begged not to be misunderstood, or to have it fuppofed that he was an enemy to the Militia; no man in that Houfe was a more fincere friend to the inftitution, and he thought it unfair in the Honourable Gentleman, who had turned their atten tion more particularly to the fubject, and prepared the Bill, to charge every member of that Houfe, who was not willing to give his immediate confent to the putting the country to the expence of calling out the Militia every year, with being an enemy to the inftitution; indeed he thought. the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had been ufed rather hardly the other day in having it imputed to him, that he was no friend to the Militia, merely because he was not willing to give a decided opinion upon that important point, till he had heard it difcuffed and debated, and by that means had afcertained the fenfe of the Houfe in general refpecting it. Mr. Jolliffe added a few more obfervations, and fat down, profeffing himself to be for the longer time. Lord Mahon faid, if the fact were, that the fenfe of the country ought to be taken, either by giving time for the grand juries to fee the bill and have an opportu nity of confidering it previous to its being paffed, or by any other means, and it were true that a blank was left for words to be inferted, enacting how long the men fhould be ballotted for, that was a strong reafon for the bill's being fent to a committee as foon as poffible, in order that the blanks might be filled up because by that being done, the country would fee what the bill really was, and be capable of judging whether the alterations were for the better or the worfe. If the country ought to fee it what could they learn from a blank bill? The idea of fending it into the country before the blanks were filled up, would be abfurd and ridiculous in the extreme; his Lordship therefore recommended, that the bill fhould go to a committee next Wednesday fe'nnight, and after that it might be printed with all the amendments that should be made by the committee. Mr. Rolle rofe once more, and faid, he had gone to the meeting of gentlemen who had undertaken to prepare a new militia bili, and had been given to understand, that no gentlemen but fuch as had ferved in the militia could be admitted.——He faid further, that he new his constituents would be against feveral of the regulations, and he wished to give them time to confider them fully. The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that he did not think it probable the converfation on the prefent fubject could take up much time. The Hon. Member behind behind him (Mr.Rolle) feemed defirous of poftponing the commitment of the bill till after the affizes, in order that the feveral grand juries might have an oppor tunity of judging of it, and fuggefting their fentiments to their reprefentatives; but he did not fee how that very laudable inclination of the Hoa. Gentleman to hear the opinion of his constituents should induce him to wish to poftpone the commiment, however it might be an argument for deferring to pass the bill. He, for his part, fhould be for the commitment on the earlier day; but he did not by any means intend to pledge himself as to his opinion, whether he fhould vote for a delay in appointing a time for the third reading of the bill or not; for, though he looked upon the bufinefs as of the utmoft confequence, and thought it highly proper on fuch occafions for the Houle to give every opportunity to the nation at large to form their judgments and opinions concerning them, yet he was inclined to think the prefent a distinct and feparate question, and not being on the general policy of a militia, but on a mere matter of regulation, was a fubject fitter for a parliamentary, than a more popular difcuffion. He apprehended, that a question between a long or a short interval, from the commitment to the third reading of the bill, would be entirely governed by the ftate in which it should leave the committee--if it appeared to contain any thing new, any thing doubtful, or any thing likely to create a great variety of opinion in the Houfe, he should then fuppofe it would be the general fenfe of gentlemen to allow a long day for the third reading; but otherwife, he could fee no other reafon for deferring it. Every man in the kingdom agreed in opinion on the propriety and usefulness of the militia, as a great refource of national defence, and therefore on that head there could be no difagreement; the only matter in difpute would be how to render it most efficacious towards the great end of its inftitution, the defence of the kingdom. If it fhould be found that it was not abfolutely neceffary, that it fhould be called out every year, then no gentleman could be averfe to the faving of fo much money as the embodying of it would neceffarily demand; but if, on the contrary, it appeared, that by not embodying of it annually, it would become lefs ferviceable, or in any degree inadequate to its end, then furely, there could be no doubt of the neceffity of an nually calling them out, notwithstanding the expence, whatever it might be, that fhould be thereby incurred. Mr. Marham rofe to fpeak to one point that had been ftated by the Hon. Member who began the debate, and that was in refpect to the Right Hon. Gentleman's having been denied admiffion, when he came while fome other gentlemen and himself were engaged upon the fubject. There was, Mr. Marsham faid, a general meeting advertifed, to which every gen. tleman who was a friend to the militia was invited to come, and every member of both Houses of Parliament-that meeting chofe a committee, and having done fo, it would have been improper for the committee to have been open to whoever chofe to attend it; becaufe in that cafe it would have been impoffible for the committee to have done any businefs, and the very end of its inftitution would have been loft. The Hon. Gentleman had to blame himself therefore for not having attended the general meeting. Mr. Pye declared, that he had never any idea of excluding the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rolle) from the meeting he had alluded to; he had, on the contrary, met him at Mr. Stockdale's fhop, and asked him to accompany him to the St. Alban's Tavern to the meeting. The bill was at length committed for Wednesday fe'nnight. the The Secretary at War brought up return of the military force of the kingdom in the year 1778, 1779, 1781, 1782, with a fpecifick account of the diftribution of it, as ordered on Wednesday laft. General Burgoyne moved, that it should be printed. To this The Chancellor of the Exchequer objected, faying, that though he thought all neceffary information fhould undoubtedly be given the Houfé, he confidered it to be highly improper to make papers of fuch a nature, fo very publick, as would be the cafe, if the Hon. Gentleman's motion were to pafs. He could not but think that to let the papers lye on the table, would be fully fufficient for the information of fuch gentlemen as intended to make use of them in argument in the courfe of Monday's debate. He obferved, that it was, he feared, becoming a custom to grant official papers almost as a matter of courfe; a custom which he hoped would not be long continued. HOUSE HOUSE OF COMMON S. Monday, February, 27. FORTIFICATIONS. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, after waiting until the buz that attended his rifing had fubfided, proceeded to open to` the House a propofition which he thought proper for them to adopt, before they went into the committee of fupply, in or der that it might be a direction to that committee towards regulating the vote that was in the courfe of the evening to be required from them. He was not furprized at the many prejudices that had gone abroad concerning the queftion then in contemplation, as fo many falfe colours had been thrown upon it, both in that House and abroad; and as fo much pains and induftry had been used to give them force and efficacy. The fyftem of fortifications had been held up to public view as deferving the fevercft cenfures that could be thrown on any measures of government; and there had been attempts to excite against it, the feelings, the paffions, and even the moft eftimable prejudices of the nation. It was reprefented as novel in its principle, as unconftitutional in its tendency, by laying a foundation for the increafe of the ftanding army, and as calculated to divert into a ufelefs or dangerous channel, thofe refources that ought rather to be applied to that great foundation of our ftrength, of our glory, and of our characteristic fuperiority over the reft of the nations of Europe---our Navy. Those were in themfelves fubftantial ob jections, and fuch, as if they did really apply to the cafe, ought to have infuperable authority; but he was come down prepared with fuch arguments as he flattered himself would appear to the House fufficient to overturn and anfwer them all, and in order that the whole fcope and object of his reafoning might be the more readily and clearly understood, he would ftate, in the outfer, the nature of his propofition, which he had fo worded as to comprehend the whole of the feveral principles on which, in his mind, the question was to ftand. He had on a former day, fuggefted, that the moft regular mode for debating the fubje&t would be in the committee of fupply, when the queftion would be, whether to vote the whole of the annual ordnance eftimates, which would amount to about 300,000l. or to vote only 250,000l. and by that means prevent the application of the fifty thousand pound, "That it appears to this Houfe, that to provide effectually for fecuring his Majefty's dock yards at Portfmouth and Plymouth, by a permanent fystem of fortifications, founded on the most econo mical principles, and requiring the final left number of troops poffible to answer the purpofe of fuch fecurity, is an effential object for the fafety of the State, intimately connected with the general defence of the kingdom, and necellary for enabling the flect to act with full vigour and effect, for the protection of commerce, the fupport of our diftant poffeffions, and the prof.cution of offenfive operations in any war in which the nation may hereafter be engaged." He confidered this question as a part of that great fyftem that ought, in the highest degree, to engrofs the attention of Adminiftration, and to which, that House ought to be peculiarly attentive-the national defence. And in order to judge of its neceffity, towards that great object, he brought back, with much pain, as he faid, the recollection of the Houfe to the unfortunate and calamitous fituation, to which we were expofed in the late war, in a great measure owing to our want of thofe Fortifications, which it was the aim of the prefent queftion to provide. A confiderable part of our feet was confined to our ports, |