it be found neceffary to move for the repeal of fome of the unpopular taxes that had been paffed this feffions, no fuch motion could be made fhould the feffions be protracted by adjournment; for then the fitting of the Houfe in October or November next would be only a continuation of the prefent feffions, and confequently no motion could be made for any fuch repeal, however neceffary it might be, as it would be against rule, that no act could be repealed, in the fame feffions in which it paffed. He conceived it alfo to be rather fingu lar that a bill should be brought in for the purpose of carrying into a law the twenty propofitions that had just been agreed to by the Houfe, before it was known how they would be received in Ireland: they might be altered,. they might be totally rejected; and in that cafe the bill that fhould have been brought in here before that event was known, would be rendered downright farcical. He prefumed, therefore, that a prorogation would, on various accounts, be preferable to an adjournment: Mr. Pitt faid this was not the time to dif cuts what acts ought, or ought not to be repealed; of what advice it would be most proper for the fervants of the crown to give to his Majefty relative to the prorogation of Parlament neither was this the time for difcuffing the propriety of bringing in the bill of which he had given notice, before the fenfe of the Parliament of Ireland could be known upon the twenty propofitions: when he should make the motion for bringing in that bill, that would be the time to debate upon that point. For the prefent he would not fay at what period he might advife the Crown to prorogue the Parliament; but this much he would fay, that it was of the utmost confequence that the bafinefs of the adjustment of the commercial intercourse between the two kingdoms, should”, be concluded as fpeedily as poffible; and during the prefent feffions; for every one knew, that should a prorogation intervene, all that hoth Houfes had been doing in this bufineis for fo long a time, would fall to the ground, and they would have the whole to begin again, fhould the feffions clofe before the fyftem was carried into a law: a prorogation therefore would anfwer no other purpofe than delay, which he thought would be highly prejudicial n the prefent fituation of affairs. HOUSE OF LORD S: Monday, July 25. Paffed the navy bills bill, the medicine duty bill, and the tea duty bill. Read a fecond time, the bill for fecuring the duties on tobacco. Agreed to the three new refolutions of Friday laft on the Irith refolutions. In the committee on a bill respecting allow• ing an indulgence to the diftillers on fpirits, for a lofs they might fuflan by the aft which paffed last year for lowering the duty on thofe articles, Lord Hopton moved an amendment in one of the claufes for extending it to the diftilleries in Scotland, which, he faid, would be parti cularly injured by the omiffione Lord Sydney faid, making any alteration would most likely prove fatal, as it was a money-bill, and in that cafe, it would prevent minifters from obtaining that indemnif cation for the diftillers they had in part promifed, provided they continued their business; as by their fropping, the whole intention of the act would have been fruftrated, fpirits wouldhave been raised to a great height, and the fmugglers had a market for their contraband goods; thofe people who had kept their promife would be deprived of any relief, and thofe perfons the noble Lord withed to ferve would not be benefited by it. Lord Hopton perfifted in the propriety of his motion, which was alfe objected to by Lord Thurlow, upon the fame ground as Lord Sydney; obferving befides he was no friend to allowing Scotland the indulgence, as it was a well known fact they fent into England many thoufand gallons more than was made in their whole country. After fome farther converfation, Lord. Hopton withdrew his motion, and the bill paffed." The order of the day was then read, for going into a committee on Phillip's powder bill, when Lord Thurlow rofe, and repeated his objections to it, and faid he could not confent to go into a committee on it until something more was adduced in its favour. Lords Effingham, Plymouth, and Dudley, fpoke very warmly in favour of the utility of the powder in defroying infects, they having made many experiments with it in their gar dens, and had heard captains in the navy mention it in very high terms.. Here the bufiness refted. Mr. Pitt then moved, that the Lords be invited to a conference; the motion paffed without oppofition; and Lord Graham was, with other members, difpatched to the House of Peers for that purLord Ferrers was against rewarding an inpofe. His Lordship foon returned, and invention, even if ever fo ufeful, with the pub. formed the Houfe that the Lords were then lic money. He had faved the nation more ready to meet the Commons at a conference. than a million, and yet he had never been reThe fame Members who managed the last, warded with place, penfion, or honour, were appointed to manage the fecond conference; they repaired to the Painted Chamber; and returning foon after, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who acted as principal manager for the Commons, informed the Houfe that he had delivered the refolutions to their Lordps The Houfe then adjourned to Monday. Lord Sandwich was of opinion, that the Houfe having once decided to go into the committee, it was by no means decent not to comply with that decifion; the powder he was well convinced had been found of the greatest fervice in many of the King's fhips: it had destroyed the weevils, a nuifance which roman but thofe who had been at fea could judge of. It was now only requested that their Lordthips would go into a committee, and judge from the evidence that could be produc ed, whether the man did or did not merit a reward from the public for his invention; and indeed he did not fee how they could with any decency refute to do that to day, which had been the refolution of the Houfe on a former occafion. Lord Morton faid a few words against it while on the other hand it was fpoke in favour of by Lords Wallingham and Mountford; after which the Lord Chancellor preffed a di vifion on going into a committee, upon which there appeared. Contents 'Proxies IO Mt Contents ro Proxies Majority against it 2 6 12 4 Lord Beauchamp took a very extensive view of the tendency of the propofitions, which he reprobated in various inftances. In the first place he obferved, that the prefent addrefs, if carried, would convey an eulogium on the fyftem which it by no means deferved. He was a friend to the propofitions at first brought forward, from the refpect which he thought due to the quarter from whence they came; but at prefent he faw themin another point of view and looked on them as the creatures of the minifter. It had been urged in defence of the fyftem, that that if fome fuch measures were not brought forward, there would be a war of prohibitions between the two countries. Now he faw no foundation for this affertion, as the articles of beer, fugar, and wire, on the importation of which, duties had been laid in Ireland, were subjc& to fuch burthens by internal excife, as mac the duties on importation unavoidable. His Lordthip then stated his particular objectionto various refolutions. The fourteenth he wis particularly averfe to, as it fecured to this country the profeffional implements of our manufactures, as well as the raw material.The fixteenth he oppofed, es restricting the intercourse af Ireland with the American States, as if they were ftill our own colonies And most of all, he objected to the refumed power of legiflation. Thus inftead of answerOn the first reading of the bill for continuing the oftenfible purpofe of thofe refolutions, ing the office of commiffioners to enquire into he was inclined to think they would have the claims of the American Loyalifts, a contrary effect. If we wished to unite this country with Ireland in bonds of amity and friendship, he was apprehenfive we had chofen an unfortunate medium, and were drawing as it were, parallel lines of accomoda tion, in which both countries could never In fact, Ireland would in legiflation have only to enrol what Great Britain had enacted, and to avoid the confequences which must follow from fo unequal a fyftem, he would oppofe the addrels. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Paffed the attornies tax bill. AMERICAN COMMISSIONERS. Mr. Rofe brought up a claufe, the purport of which he explained to be, that two comithoners thould be fent to Nova Scotia, for better opportunity of enquiry, and that confe quently two of those who remained, fhould conftitate a quorum, instead of three, which was the former number. Lord Beauchamp defired to know whether it was intended to make any provifion for thofe veffels which came under the prohibitory act? Mr. Rofe answered in the affirmative, and the bill was ordered to be read a fecond time to-morrow. IRISH PROPOSITIONS. After the twenty refolutions for a commercial arrangement between this country and Ireland, were this day returned from the Lords, Mr. Pitt rofe, and without any preface, moved an humble addrels to his Majesty, the purport of which was, to acquaint him, that purfuant to the inftructions conveyed in his moft gracious fpeech from the throne, his faithful Commons had taken into their most ferious attention the means of establishing a commercial intercourfe, between this country and Ireland, on reciprocal, final, and permanent principles. That certain terms and propofitions were laid before them by the parlia ment of Ireland on the 22d of February last, on which were founded the refolutions comprifed in the prefent addrefs, and praying that his Majefly would be pleased to tranfmit the fame to the parliament of Ireland, &c. &c. &s. meet. Mr. Jenkinson made a long reply, in which he argued, that Ireland was proceeding even to prohibitions in the cafe of beer, wire, and fugar; and defended the neceffity of the system on the addrefs made by the Irish parlia ment to the crown, requesting fome regulati on. He faid, that Great Britain under the prefent fyftem did not affume any legislative authority over Ir land, as that country wond be no longer bound to adhere to the agree ment, than while Great Britain continued to make fuch laws as would be beneficial to both countries. On the whole, he thought the’ fyftem the best of any that could be adopted, fhort of an union. Mr. Eden faid, that nothing could be more for the intereft of two countries, fituated as England and Ireland were, than a commi nity in every thing in which it could take place; but independent as they both were, one of the other, he was not aware of any means by which that community could be eftablished. An union of trade mon be attended with a community of regulation, and that must be attended with a community of Di legif legiflation, which under the prefent circumftances could not be expected, He obferved, that it was a fashionable proceeding in that Houfe for gentlemen to appear equally affected on both fides of the queftion. For his part he would difclaim fuch liberality, and openly avow himself the agent of Great Britain; and in doing this he would compare what the gave away, with what the received. After going into this pretty much at large, and itating the conceffion of the home market, the colonial trade, &c. he exhibited in the strongest point of view, the inadequency of the compenfation with Ireland was to give in the furplus of an hereditary revenue, from which nothing but deficiency had for fome time occurred. Difapproving of the fyftem in general, he was, however, well pleafed to find, that fince their First introduction to the Houfe, which was in a fate highly inadmiffible for this country, he was not wanting in his endeavours to extract fome of the poifon, and give them a degree of modification. He would fill confider it a happy circumftance to get rid of the bufinefs in toto, for which purpose he was ready to oppofe the addrefs. Mr. Fox, while he found himself under the neceffity of difagreeing with his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. Eden) in confidering the propofitions lefs objectionable at prefent than og their first introduction, thought it firft neceffary to exculpate himfelf from any charge of inconfiftency, in giving them the fame oppofition now as in any former flage. He main tained that every advantage in point of commerce, was clearly and decidedly against this country in the outfet; the fame objection fill beld, only heightened by this circumftance, that by the alterations every political and confitutional change was obviously and incontrovertibly against Ireland. As an Englishman, he could not furrender those refources which always made it powerful; and were he an ihiman he would not cede thofe privileges, enjoyed after fo much pains and difficulty. After having fo frequently and unfuc. cetsfolly attempted to convince the Houfe on this fubject, he would not enter on a detail of thefe points fo often d fcuffed before. But as he was often charged with not collecting the opinions of the people from the proper fources, he would only obferve, on this occafion, that the objection by no means applied, as he had in fupport of his oppofition to this fyftem, the concurrent perfevering, and almoft unanimous teftimonies of the principal manufacturers in the most important branches of trade in this kingdom. To this he could not with any degree of propriety oppofe the opinions of prople in office, who from repeated errors, prev. ed themselves wholly unacquainted with it; he could ftate facts again affertion, and rea tity against fuppofition. It was idle to argue in defence of this meafore, that it was implied in former mcafores? he would appeal not only to the noble Lord who mentioned this in another Houfe; but to any member of the cab.net, which allifted in his Majefty's coun cils in feventeen hundred 'and 'eighty two, whether any thing like a commercial arrange ment was intended. For his part, he was free to declare, that when he moved for the repeal of the 6th Geo. I. he had no intention of profecuting the idea to the extent now entertained; and he wished to remind those gen tlemen, who were then members of the Hoafe, whether at that very time he did not express it as his firm opinion, that it would have been for the advantage of Ireland to acquiesce in, and admit the fupreme "internal legislation of this country; that the people of Ireland were then of a different opinion, he had many reafons to lament, that they were not fill of the fame opinion, was by no means proved in the invidious tendency of the prefent propofitions. He would not, however, call them a clandeftine attempt to refume that power we already difclaimed, but should confider it as a negotiation to exchange British commerce for Irith freedom; but whether fuch an agreement would be admitted on the part of Ireland, was yet to be determined; but if any conjecture could be formed from the declared opinions of the people of the best confideration in that country, little hopes could be entertained of it. -Not that it was to be concluded, but the influence of administration might carry the fame weight in that country, as it did in this; but when the opinions of the people at large ran in frong current against the measures of the legislature, he had to mach experience in politics to pronounce that no permanency could attend them. Without meaning to infult the parliament of Ireland, he would fuppofe them to be formed pearly in the fanie manner as our own, and with fimilar attachments; but he would defy any person in that House, or in this, to explain any abfolute advantage in this fytem, or to give any good reason for their fupport of it, independent of the confidence which fome perfons profeffed to hold in the minifter, though he could not fee from whence that could properly arife. He had before put it ferioufly to the Houfe, whether they were prepared to decide on the queftion from their own knowledge, and the result of the examination proved that the question was not lightly propofed, he could prove the fame interrogatory, and was well founded in thinking the repetition could not be vain. For what was the view of thofe whofe interference was demanded by their concern in the event? What was the univerfal cry of the manufacturers both on this and on the other fide of the water?"Give us more time, let us have an opportunity of confidering!" The minifter however, thought otherwife; and furely from any proofs he has yet afforded, there was no reafon to conclude him better informed on the fubject than he ought to be much less reafon to believe him better acquainted with the manufacturing intereft, than the manufacturers themselves. The laft defcription gave us nothing to expect but ruin from them here; the minister, however, expected financial advantages to out-balance this ruin, and when that financial financial advantage, came to be confidered, it remedy. He need not prefs npon the Houfe Mr. Fox in the course of his fpeech, wished for delay, and confeffed, that with the ut moft attention he had not been able to make himself mafter of the fobject. 'he advanced positions, which he did not after- The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied to Mr. Fox, he faid that if politive affertions and dogmatical opinions delivered again the propofitions were to determine the judgement of the House in the decifion that was to be given upon them that night, there was little doubt but the whole fyftem would be rejected: but on the other hand, if the House had attended duly to the arguments urged in fupport of thofe pofitive affertions, and dogmatical opinions, it must ere this have found that they led to conclufions directly oppofite to thofe which the gentlemen who used them intended to draw. The Right Hon. Gentleman who fpoke laft, had made a speech, which exclufive of the eloquence fo natural to that Gentleman, was remarkable for little more than the authoritative pofitiveness with which laws, upon which the happiness and firengti of both Great Britain and Ireland to effentiaily depended; but though the object of that refolution should be attained in as full and ample a manuer, as the refolution expreffed it, till he would maintain that it would be perfectly compatible with the independence of the Parliament of Ireland. In fact, it was no more than a propofal from one Sovereign and independent Legislature to another, to deliberate upon the difcretion with which either might think proper, at a future period, to regulate or limit the exercife of their fovereign power of legiflation; in this there was pothing repugnant to the most jealous_re gard for independence. He would luppole a cafe-That England and Portugal for infiance thould make a treaty, by which the former fhould bind herself to treat the latter as the most favoured nation; what would be the confequence? It would be is, that thould England think proper tower the duties ca French wines, the would be bound to lower thofe on Port wines at the fame time; the could not poffibly do the one without do Right Hon. Gentleman, that the man who would maintain either of the two extremes of this propofition, that the voice of the people is to be heard only in parliament, or always our of parliament, would certainly find himfelf in an error: for his part he was not afraid of falling into an error, ia faying that the general fease of the people of Ireland was for protecting duties: the parliament of that kingdom had refifted the cry of the people on that head; but it had been repeated fo loudly, That notwithstanding the confequences to which that affembly knew protecting duties would ultimately lead, it was obliged in compliance with the fenfe of the people, which ought always to have weight with a Houfe of Commons, to impofe additional duties on beer, wire and fugars, knowing them at the time to be protecting duties; for they were oppofed as fuch at the time, by the friends of government; who then would be bold enough to lay, that, when the people of Ireland called for duties which in theirmatore, would neceffarity Teparate the two countries, there was no neceffity for a final fettlement between them? The man who could maintain fuch a proponing the other; and yet who would fay that the tion, could not be a friend to either. The next ground on which the propofitions had been attacked fince their introduction, was, that our navigation laws would be endangered by this fettlement, as the execution of them would be intrufted to perfons over whom we had no controv). This feemed to have been a firong ground of oppofition; but had of late been almost entirely abandoned. In anfwer to this objection, he would fay, that as thips bringing Colonial produce into Great Britain through Ireland, must have certain documents from custom-house officers in the Colonies, it was clear that any fraud that could be committed, to the evafion of tire navigation laws, muft be by perfons over whom this country has a complete controul; and therefore the execution of the navigation laws is not intruffed to perfons out of the reach of the Britth Parliament. But beaten out of this objection, as out of others, the enemies to the propofitions, after having fought the battles of English manufacturers, against Ireland, were now become the champions of Ireland, again what they called the defire of the British Parliament, to refome the legifiative independence of Ireland. -They did not indeed fay that there was an intention any where to refume it by force; but they faid that this was an attempt to recover it by negociation. The bare mention of fach an idea had made it proper that in the addrefs the Houle thould, in the moft folemn manner, difclaim any fuch intention: and even on this account, if on no other, the addrefs ought to país, in order that the Irith might be convinced that the infinuations and reports, thrown out and spread fo induftri ufly on that head, with a view no doubt to inflame their minds, were entirely without foundation. It was his obj &, indeed, by the fourth refolution, to fecure the unity of the navigation British Parliament was not fogereign and in- and union between the two countries were ab- |