orm invariable practice of the Houfe, in at never had been the practice of the Hoafe, but that the Houfe had at all imes, and on all occafions exercised their ndifcretion, as they had done in the late ance of the Army Estimates.

Mr Vyner rofe to order. He faid, the aft hon. Gentleman had declared he rofe to order, and furely it could not be said, that he was fpeaking to order. He had terrupted another gentleman who had a ht to be heard first.

The Speaker faid, he confidered the hon. gentleman alluded to, had waved his right f priority.

Mr. Courtenay declared he had not; but he meant to have faid, was, that his cce of wit fhould hereafter lie eight lays on the table, to give the right hon. gentleman time enough to make a preparation of wit in reply, and then the Houfe would be able to judge whether the reply

was wit or no.

Mr. W. Grenville rofe again and faid, if the hon. gentleman had been fo long interrupted as not to have been able to have found any opportunity of faying what they had just heard, the Houfe would have fufained no lofs. Mr. Grenville refumed his former argument on the fubject of the practice of the Houfe in regard to Eftimates of any kind lying upon the table, and maintained, that it lay wholly in the difcretion of the Houfe to fay what time papers fhould be there prior to their being referred to a Committee of Supply. As a proof that the fact was fo, Mr. Grenville read one of the ftanding orders, the purport of which was, "that all Eftimates for aids to be levied on the fubject should not be voted prefently after they were introduced and laid on the table; but that the Houfe fhould order them to be condered and voted on another day." This anding Order, Mr. Grenville faid, was a lear, written rule of proceeding, on which the Houfe might rely with fafety, hch it was impoffible for them to do any affumed practice of the Houfe, vever confidently afferted.

The Refolutions were read a fecond me, and the queftion put upon each ferarely. They were all agreed to, and Secretary at War ordered to bring in bill grounded upon them.

RDNANCE ESTIMATES, and FORTI FICATION of the DOCK YARDS. The Surveyor General of the Ordinance M. Luttrell) brought up the Ordnance imates, which were ordered to be nted.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer next brought up the Eftimate of the expence of erecting fortifications for the protection and fecurity of the dock-yards, which was likewife ordered to be printed.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that he thought it neceffary to give notice to the Houfe of fuch circumftances, relating to the paper he had laid upon the table, as would enable them more clearly to comprehend and be prepared for the queftion that would arife upon it on Monday fennight;, he fhould for the prefent de cline entering into any argument whatfoever concerning it. The year before laft the sum of 50,000l. had been voted to the Ordnance fervice for the purpose of fortis fications ;-that fum had been fuffered to lie dormant without applying it to the purpose for which it was intended, and conf-quently in the last feffions, when the Ordnance Eftimates were moved, intimation was given to the House, that that fum continuing to lie in the hands of the Board of Ordnance, rendered it unneceffary for any application to be then made to Parliament for money to carry on the fortifications that had been begun, as they intended to apply the fum that had already been granted to them.-Hereupon fome diffatisfaction arifing in the minds of a part of the Houfe, from an idea that the plan of fortifications was ùfelefs and objectionable, he had, to prove how anxious he was on all occafions to do his duty as guardian of the national purfe, undertaken to wave for that time any further proceeding in the bufinefs, until a Board of Enquiry fhould have been appointed, confifting of feveral officers of diftinguished character in both the naval and military fervices, and the whole plan fhould have been referred to them for their opinion and advice. That accordingly fuch a Board had been appointed, and his Majefty had commiffioned them to proceed in the moft effectual manner, as well by actual furvey upon the fpot, as by all other modes of invefti gation to inform themselves on the fubject, and to make a report of their opinions concerning it. This Board, he said, confifted of officers whofe reputation, when their names were heard, would prove the fincerity of the 'intentions of Government with regard to the bufinefs. There were feveral fpecific fubjects propofed to this Board for their enquiry, among which it was particularly referred

to them to afcertain, Whether our dockyards at Plymouth and Portsmouth could

be

be thought fafe and defensible, in the event of a war, by a naval force alone, by a military force alone, or by a naval and military force combinedTo this their anfwer was, that neither a naval or a military force, nor even an union of both, were by any means a fufficient fecurity for the dock-yards, independent of fortification. They were further directed to examine whether the plans of fortifica tion propofed by the Malter General of the Ordnance, were fufficiently calculated for the purpose, and fuch as were eligible to be adopted. To this they had reported, that on the moft mature deliberation and moft diligent enquiry, the plan alluded to was thought perfectly adequate to the defence intended, and that it was the moft eligible of any other that could be fuggefted; not only in being leaft expensive in regard to crection, but also as requiring a smaller force than any other that could be propofed. They had been alfo directed to report to his Majefty, fuch further matter as might occur independant of the particular points referred to them, and they might think conducive to the public advantage within the whole department, and they had confequently given many useful hints of a mifcellaneous and general nature, which, he hoped, would turn out to confiderable advantage. After their report had been completed, the plans they had recommended had been laid before the Board of Engineers, with directions to estimate the expence of carrying them into execution; and this eftimate he had now brought up for the information of the Members; but they muft fee how imprudent it would be for him to lay before the public a matter of fo ferious and delicate a nature, as the report of the naval and military officers, concerning fo important and fo ferious a fubject as the defence of our dock-yards. To proceed in carrying into execution the fubject matter of the report of thofe offi cers, 50,000l. would for the prefent be neceffary; but as that fum had already been voted for the fervice of the Ordnance, with a view to apply it the manner under confideration, there was no neceffity of recurring to Parliament for a second vote; and the mode intended to be adopted was to move for 300,000l. the estimate of the fervices for the current year, and if gentlemen thought proper to oppofe the carrying on of the fornecations, the method in which they could with the greateft propriety argue that question, would be by moving that 250,000l. only, inftead of 300,000l. Could be voted for the Ord.

nance, that fo the Board would be obliged to apply the 50,000l. in hand to the carrent fervice, and by that means the tofnefs of the fort fications muft of neceffity drop. He earnestly entreated of gentle men to come down to the Houfe free from every prejudice on the prefent occafion, not to consider it as a mere queftion of Ordnance fervice, nor as a fill more unpopular queftion of Fortification, but to confider it, what in truth it really was, as a Naval queftion; the prefent meature being intended to protect the feeds and vital fources of our Navy at home, and to enable us in cafes of neceffity to go upon diftant fervices, without an apprehenfion of being crushed at home by a fuccefsful attack of an enemy on thofe dock-yard, in which were deposited the stamina of or future vigour and exifience. And it further cautioned the Houfe against the danger of taking up the bufincis as the fuggeftion of any one man, however great and refpectable, declaring, that they were not to confider it as a mere affertion of an individual, or a fingle Minifter, butas a matter refting on the authority of a number of the ableft and most experienced men in the two profeffions of arms, readered fill more competent to the task by a long and most minute inveftigation and refearch.

General Burgoyne rofe, partly to avoid a debate in that ftage of the bufinets, which was extremely delicate in its nature, and partly to prevent his firting flera from being conftrued into an admiffion of all that had been fuggefted by the Right Hon Gentleman to the extent that a feemed to go, as a corre& reprefentation of the report of the Board of Naval and Military Officers, appointed to infpect the propofed plans of fortifying the duckyards. The General faid, he hoped th Minifter would lay before the Houte f much of the Report as might be fubmittre to public perufal, without violation difcretion or danger to the State. In th Report, undoubtedly there were parts th it would be extremely indifcreet to mak matter of notoriety; those he neither wil ed nor expected to fee.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer de clared, that he had not ftated any th lightly, but from a collected and atten confideration; that it would appear whe he had faid upon the subject was perfet true and candid; and that however cloft and minutely he had already examız the Report, he would fill farther fed before the day appointed for the dis

Mr. Sheridan faid, if they were not to fee fuch parts of the Report of the Board of Infection as were fit for the House to difcufs, they were exactly in the fame fituation in which they flood before that Board was appointed, and inftead of having the whole of the queftion fully before them, as the Right Hon. Gentle man had faid they would have it, viz. not on the affertion of an individual, of a fingle Minifter, nor of any man in office, but on the authority of a Board confifting of Naval and Military Officers of known character, experience and integrity, they would have nothing but the bare affertion of the Minifter to guide their judgment by. Mr. Sheridan said, he had no doubt that the Right Hon. Gentleman meant to be accurate in the statement he had just made as the outlines of the report in queftion, and that he had delivered, what he himself conceived to be a correct statement of thofe outlines; but the Houfe had heard that contradicted by the Honourable General behind him, who had himself been a Member of that Board; in order therefore to enable the Houfe to judge fairly between the Right Honourable Gentleman and the Honourable General, they ought to fee fuch part of the Report at least as might be fubmitted to their perufal with fafety to the State,

Mr. Dempfter faid, as he understood it was intended to apply the furplus of the revenue to a Gnking fund for diminishing the national debt, he thought it highly improper to facrifice any part of it to a fpeculative object like the prefent; for his part, he pretended to know little about fortifications, but unless they were found to be indifpenfably neceffary for the defence of our dock yards, he hoped and trusted that parliament would not fquander away any of that money upon them, that might be laid out to fuch advantage as diminishing the national debt, and of courfe reviving the public credit, which he thought preferable, even for the prefervation of the navy itself, and the ftrong eft means of defence in cafe of a war, as it would enable us to make fuch, exertions as in our prefent oppreffed state we must defpair of doing.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, hat he was entirely of opinion with the Hon. Gentleman as to the impropriety of the House confenting to the fortifications, unless they appeared abfolutely indifpenfible, for he by no means thought that on the prefent question the Houfe fhould be governed in their determination by the

quantum of the furplus of the revenue, but folely by the necessity of the measure for the defence of the navy. Let the furplus be ever fo great, it ought to be no motive, nor could it be any excuse for laying out any part of it on an ufelefs praject, but though there were no furplus at all, if a measure appeared neceffary for the fecurity of that great bulwark of our glory and ffrength, the navy, the expence of carrying it into execution ought to be no obftacle, for in that cafe however difficult and diftreffing it might be, it would be the duty of parliament to provide the means. Our being rich, was no reafon why we fhould be profufe and prodigal, nor though we were poor fhould we therefore abandon our neceffary defence. If we were rich, let us increase our riches: and if we were poor let us endeavour to diminifh our poverty by every faving that did not militate against the real fafety of our dominions; but let us not, on any occafion, fuffer ourselves to be betrayed by profperity into extravagance, nor led by adverfity into defpondence.

Mr. Vyner faid, he wifhed the estimates of the ordinance for the current fervice of the year could be voted regularly on Monday fe'nnight, and the queftions relative to the estimate of the fortifications referved for a future and diftinct confideration. This would not retard the difpatch of the publick bufinefs, and it would give gentlemen an opportunity of property and maturely deliberating upon a fubject that was fe new even in idea, that he could not perfuade himself he should ever agrée to it. The navy of England had hitherto been locked upon as a fufficient fecurity for our dock yards, and as they had been fafe for fuch a long courfe of years without fortifications, he fhould expect the moft convincing proofs of an abfolute neceffity for the measure, before he should confent to vote any of the publick money for fuch a purpose; he hoped therefore the Right Hon. Gentleman would not withold from them fuch parts of the report, as difcretion would warrant the difcuffion of.

Mr. Courtenay faid, he did not mean at prefent to argue on the propriety or inpropriety of the propofed fortifications. He rofe, in the first place, to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the very clear, explicit, accurate and fatisfactory detail he had entered into, on the principal point on which a board of naval and land officers, to examine and report the plan propofed by the noble Duke at the

head

head of the ordnance had been established. He should only obferve, it appeared to him, that fuch a military judicature was inftituted for the exprefs purpose of putting the noble Duke's office into commiffion, and to report their opinion on the judgement, and the military or engineering capacity of the noble Duke, who had fubmitted a plan of defence for the protection of the dock yards, to the reprefentatives of the people; but they, from a well-intended but groundlefs fufpicion, perhaps of the noble Duke's experience or abilities for fuch an extenfive plan (at tended with an enormous expence) required, and almoft compelled the minifter, to acquiefce in their fentiments, and to fufpend the execution of the proposed works, till a board of naval and land offcers had made plaufible at least such a fyftem, by their approbation and authority. The Chancellor of the Exchequer feemingly fubmitted to the ftrong reafons, frong numbers, and forcible objections, of numbers of men, refpectable country gentlemen, who might always if they exerted themselves, command the attention, and restrain the exceffes of any minifter. However, when the commiffion was made out, the publick was furprized that the noble Duke was appointed prefident of a tribunal, whose duty it was, to investigate the noble Duke's fyftem of expence, and report to the King, both the practicability of the plan, and the judgement and capacity of the projector.

Mr. Courtenay, therefore, faid, he meant, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no objection, to move for the commiflioners inftructions, which were given to the noble Duke, on his being appointed prefident of the board. At the fame time, Mr. Courtenay further obferved upon the difference of opinion between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Hon. General, the first having declared, that no part whatever of the report made by the military board, could with any degree of fafety be laid before the publick, but the Hon. General had, on the contrary, declared, that much ufeful information might be collected by the House from that report, without the fmalleft rifque or hazard of divulging any thing that could endanger the publick fafety. Mr. Courtenay expreffed the admiration in which he held the abilities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but on this particular point, (being not only a military point, but a point with which he was particularly converfart, from having been an

officer of that board) Mr. Courtenay faid, he could not help deciding in favour of the Hon. General, against the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He therefore, could not help wifhing, that fuch parts of the report might be felected under the check and controul of the minifters, as might be useful to the members of the Houfe, without being detrimental to the publick; and he urged the necethty of this, from the nature of the subject, on which the Houfe was called upon to form their judgement, the matter being out of the common courfe of parliamentary proceeding, and not only entitled them, but made it their duty to call for every degree of information respecting it.

Mr. Luttrell reprimanded Mr. Courtenay for an attempt to mislead the Houfe by an infinuation that fome of the queftions at the Board of Officers, were car ried by a majority of one fingle voice, and that the Prefident's. For his part, he had been himself a Member of that Board, and he would venture to take his own knowledge against the fpeculation of the Hon. Gentleman-he could fafely affirm that there was not a fingle queftion carried by a fmaller majority than that of twenty to

three.

Mr. Holdfworth faid, he had been one of those who last feffion were against fuffering the fort fications to proceed, without having fome farther proof of their be ing neceffary befides the mere claim of the money by the Board of Ordnance, but he fhould hold himself perfectly at liberty to act as fhould appear to him beft, after the Houfe was apprized of the opinion of the Board of Naval and Military Officers upon the fubject, and the matter was under regular difcuffion.

Mr. Courtenay faid, that he by no means intended to affert as a fact, that any queftion had been carried at the Board by the cafting voice of the President; he had only fuppofed fuch a fact to ftrengthen his ar gument, which was, that the House could by no means judge purely from the report of the juftice and propriety of it, unless it was alfo accompanied with the minutes, that fo they might fee the ground on which the report had been made; but at prefent deprived as they were of thofe minutes, they might, for all that appeared to them be determining on a point which at the Board had been carried by a Majority of one only. Mr Courtenay repeated, that it was his intention to move for a copy the Commiffion and instructions.

of

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