would venture to abide by; and if he had, to declare what were the arguments and reasons on which fuch an opinion was eftablished. If no gentleman was ready to commit himself in fuch a manner, why then should they expect or defire him to do fo? If his expreffing a doubt upon the fubject, and defiring time and information was to be conftrued as an omen of the illfuccefs of the whole arrangement propofed by the framers of the bill; though at the fame time declaring that he was not determined against the principle, how dangerous muft it be (fince the gentlemen were pleafed to afcribe fuch weight to his opinion,) to force him to give one before it was fufficiently matured and digefted; and he defired the hon. gentleman to reflect how inconsistent it was with his boated zeal for the militia on conftitutional grounds, to make himself inftrumental in propagating a doctrine, that it was juftifiable for any gentleman who was in poffeffion of a plan calculated to ferve the public, to withold it from the House until he thould previously have obtained the concurrence of his Majefty's minifters. Mr. Marsham rofe as foon as the Chancellor of the Exchequer fat down, and complained of the manner in which the right hon. gentleman had stated the queftion relative to the militia. Mr. Mariham repeated part of his argument of Monday laft, relative to the propriety of the executive Government's undertaking meafures for the regulation of the militia, rather than expecting it at the hands of private and individual members of parliament, who had no profpect of fuccefs, unlefs fupported heartily and cordially by Adminiftration. Two members of that House were the perfons who had dedicated fo much of their attention to the fubject, and it was extremely unfair in his mind, to charge them with having deferted their fyftem, if upon not finding Government a friend to it, they declined going on any farther with it. As to the right hon. gentleman's not being willing to declare his opinion upon that part of the bill, which the gentlemen who had pre. pared it, considered as the most essential, till the contents of the bill were teen, the right hon. gentleman had it in his pofief fion; he himself had delivered it to him, and therefore the plea for his filence upon the fubject was frivolous and ill-founded. The Chancellor of the Exchequer begged the Hon. Gentleman, having already held hem forth as an enemy to the Minia, would not now do him a fecond injuffice in reprefenting him as having spoken difrefpectfully of the two gentlemen who bad affifted him in arranging the plan he had intended to propofe, and which, upon fuch frivolous grounds, he had thought proper to abandon; he had by no means included them in the cenfure he had been induced to pafs on the conduct of the Hon. Gentleman, at whose door the whole blame would continue to reft, in fpite of all his efforts to throw it upon him. He admitted, that the Bill had, as ftated by the Hon. Gentleman, been in his poffeffion; but, he alfo wifhed to hear it debated in the Houfe, as he fhould then have lights to govern his judgment by, that the Bill itfelf was incapable of affording. Lord North replied, and faid, in answer to the Chancellor's declaration, that he begged the queftion; that the matter in conteft, like all matters of ufage and practice ought to be confidered and treated as a begged queftion. When a precedent was eftablished by invariable practice, it was their part to obey it implicitly, and not to question or enquire into the propriety of its foundation. His Lordship perfifted in his former argument, and called again for a fingle inftance of deviation from the practice of having the eftimates at least eight days on the table. Mr. Fox faid, he thought it perfectly wife and perfectly juftifiable in the Right Hon. Gentleman to declare he would not deliver an opinion upon any matter that he had not properly confidered, and he made no fcruple, as a private individual, to make precifely the declaration that the Right Hon. Gentleman had done, viz. that he had not made up his mind upon the question, whether the Militia might not be put upon a respectable footing, without incurring the expence to the country of embodying them every year, but though he was not afhamed, as a private individual to make fuch a declaration, he should be moft heartily afhamed, were he the Minifter, to make any declaration like it on a question relative to a force under the immediate cognizance and direction of the executive Government. Was it to be fuppofed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not made up his opinion on a question fo immediately minifterial? As well might he fay, when the Army was to be vored, "You tell us, Mr. Secretary at "War, that fuch a number of men is "neceffary for the fervice of the year. "but I, the Minister of the Country, "have not made up mind upon it. I "must first hear all the arguments that "can be urged upon it, before I commit "myfelf fo far as to deliver my opinion "upon the fubject." The abfurdity of fuch conduct would ftare every man in the 'face, and it was not at all lefs abfurd to hold the language the Right Hon. Gentle man had done, with regard to the Militia, refpecting which it was not poffible that the Right Honourable Gentleman fhould not have made up his mind, as much as he might be fuppofed to have done in refpect to the Army, the Navy, the fortifications of the kingdom, or any other queftion or department that was in its nature purely Minifterial. Mr. Fox ftrenuously fupported the arguments of Mr. Sheridan and Lord North, in refpect to the impropriety of going into the confideration of the eftimates that day unless fome fpecial public reafon could be ftated. In answer to what had been faid of the Gentlemen not having before come down and objected to their being referred to the Committee that day, he reminded the Houfe, that it was not poffible for any Gentleman to have done fo; he had it in contemplation last Monday, when notice of the Navy was given, but he was aware, that if he attempted it, he fhould have been told, and very properly told from the Chair, that there was no queftion before the Houfe. When then had there been a fair opportunity of objecting till the very moment that a motion was made for the Speaker to leave the Chair? Mr. Fox argued this point with his wonted ability, and maintained that the practice of the Houfe, though not to be found in any written form, ought to be held as facred as any one of the standing orders that were to be turned to in their journals. Mr. Rofe faid, he meant to enter into no argument, but merely to move that the clerk might read two fhort extracts from their journals: the dates were Dec. 12, 1774, and Dec. 16, 1774. On the first of thofe days Lord Barrington prefented the army eftimates of that year, and on the fecond, only four days afterwards, his Lordship had moved to refer thofe eftimates to the confideration of a committee. After thofe extracts had been read, Mr. Rofe obferved, that they proved what had been the practice when the noble Lord in the blue ribbon fat on that bench as the minifter of the country. Lord North faid, they had certainly found a fingle precedent, but one "fwal low did not make a fummer," before twe much reliance was placed on the precedent juft read, all the peculiar circumstances of that year ought to be known and afcertained. He believed the reafon of the deviation in 1774 from the practice infifted on that day had been this: A new Parliament was affembled in December, and it was thought adviseable to vote the army before the Christmas Recefs, and thence the fhortness of time between the prefenting the cftimates and the voting them. At that period alfo the American troubles were commencing, and other peculiar circumftances occurred; but till they were investigated and known, his Lordfhip declared he fhould ftill maintain his argument that the practice ought to be adhered to, unless fome efpecial public reafon for departing from it could be affigned. Mr. W. Grenville took fire at the noble Lord's mode of arguing against the precedent of 1774, and faid, he hoped that ftrong inftance would ferve as a warning to Gentlemen on the other fide not to be too wanton in their affertions. He cautioned the House upon the neceffity of diftinguishing between a ftanding order, written down and capable of immediate reference, and a rule affumed and afferted with confidence, for the purpose of the moment. He charged Lord North with having reforted to a curious fort of argument in explanation of the precedent of 1774. He declared the noble Lord had faid, that "one fwallow did not make a fummer," and that he had stated, that it was at a moment when the exigency of affairs rendered an augmentation of the army neceffary, that the army had been voted on a fhorter notice than ufual; it was, he said, the more extraordinary that the noble Lord fhould have mentioned the American war in juftification of the circumftance, as he was himself the author of that war, the caufe of all our calamities. Lord North in reply denied, that he had faid any fuch thing as the Hon. Gentleman had imputed to him, or had alluded even to any intended augmentation of the army in 1774. So far from it he believed the army voted at that time was an army for the peace eftablishment. What he had ftated as likely to have been the reafon for the deviation from the ordinary practice was, the shortness of the period before the Christmas recefs. With regard to the American war, which was the cheval de bataille of the gentlemen on the other fide of the House, and which they were always ready ready to introduce into every debate, whether it was relative to it or not, was to them no matter; he was willing however, at any time to enter upon that fubject with then, though there were thofe now fitting near them, who could make a much better defence for the American war than he could, and who knew the grounds of it full, as well. He certainly had voted for the ftamp act, and fo had many other refpectable gentlemen: and the American ftamp act undoubtedly fowed the feeds of thole humours that began to collect, and afterwards burft out into an open war. Mr. W. Grenville made a short reply, in which he faid the noble Lord, and the gentlemen near him, had affumed a rule which the chair had not laid down. Mr. Courtenay began his fpeech with declaring, that it was highly difrefpe&tful to perfift in an opinion directly repugnant to the fenfe of the chair, Mr. Courtenay was called to order by Mr. Grenville, who faid, he had not treated the chair with difrefpect, and therefore he would not fuffer his argument to be tortured into a meaning that did not belong to it. Mr. Courtenay declared, that fo far from meaning to torture what the Hon. Gentleman had faid, he had not uttered one fyllable about it, and as to torturing his argument it was impoffible, for nothing like an argument could be found in all the Hon, Gentleman had spoken. Mr. Courtenay then talked of the reverential refpect due to the authority of the chair, and declared, he rofe with a view to fave the time of the Houfe, and shorten the debate by appealing to the chair, and abiding by its decifion. Having faid this, Mr. Courtenay charged the minifter with having acted infidiously with refpect to the militia, in profeffing himfelf its hereditary friend, while he had no other design than to annihilate it. With respect to the allufion made to the American war by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke laft, he faid he was aftonifhed to hear what had fallen from him upon that fubject as a matter of reproach imputable to the noble Lord in the blue ribband, becaufe, if report was to be relied on, that Hon. Gentleman might be called the hereditary friend to the American war, fince his own father was the author and propofer of the ftamp act that was the caufe of the war; but the American war was the hobby horfe of the minifter and all his friends, and they generally rode away upon it from the real fubject under difcuffion. Mr. Courtenay adPOL. MAG. VOL. X. FEB. 1786. ded a variety of other obfervations, and concluded with calling upon the Speaker to declare what he had faid upon a former day in refpect to the practice in question. The Speaker thus appealed to, rofe and repeated what he had faid when the eftimates were prefented, and notice given by the Secretary at War, that he should move to refer them as that day to a committee of fupply. Mr. Dundas declared he did not think it neceflary to fay one word in reply to what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken juft before the speaker rofe, as he had done little more than repeat what had been stated by other gentlemen, but in more coarfe and clumfy language. Mr. Dundas then addreffed a few words in reply to Lord North and Mr. Fox. In regard to the precedent of 1774, the noble Lord had faid, produce an inftance! upon that a friend of his had taken up the journals, and almost at the firft opening of the book hit upon one, and for aught he knew the book was full of them: but the one found was fufficient. He reafoned upon this for fome little time, , and then said, Mr. Fox and his right hon. friend ftood exactly in the fame predicament refpecting the militia, they had both been minifters in time of peace, it was therefore as reasonable to expect the one had made up his mind to the question of calling them out as the other, and yet he believed the right hon. Gentleman oppofite to him would not affert that he was prepared to say decidedly what his opinion was upon the fubject as a minifter, though God be praised! he was not a minifter then. Before Mr. Dundas fat down, he said, it was agreed on all hands, that no furprize was meant in the prefent infance, and a precedent had been read, to fhew that voting the estimates after even less than a week's notice, was not unusual, he would therefore hope that they would lofe no more time but would go into the commit tee. Mr. Courtenay in reply faid, what he meant as a compliment had been returned with a farcafm. The charge of his having repeated the arguments and ideas of others in more coarfe and clumfy language was undoubtedly true; but the fact was, he had tranflated thofe arguments, and thofe ideas into more coarfe and clumsy language out of civility to the Right Hon. Gentleman who had fpoken laft, in order to render them more intelligible to him. Mr. Fox made a fhort reply, in which he pointed out the difference between his R bayin having been in office once at a period, during a time of war, and at another time during about eight or nine months of peace, and the Right Hon. Gentleman at present Chancellor of the Exchequer, having been minifter of the country two whole years together. With regard to the Right Hon. Gentleman's faying, "God be praised he was not a minifter then," Mr. Fox faid, he had no manner of doubt, if a revolution in adminiftration was to take place, and he were by any change to be minifter, fo little diflike had that Right Hon. Gentleman to him perfonally, that if the proper means were taken, he fhould have the Right Hon. Gentleman fitting by him and Supporting his measures in like manner as he had done those of the noble Lord in the blue ribband, and as he did now thofe of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Pye rofe in the midst of the debate, when the militia bill, that had been intended to have been brought in by Mr. Martham was the topic of dufcuffion, and declared if it would afford fatisfaction to the Houfe, he would bring in the bill. Lord Surrey acknowledged, that he had declared himself an advocate for an early reference of the army estimates to the committee, from a with to expedite the publick bufinefs, but as he learnt from the Speaker that the practice had uniformly been for them to remain longer on the -table, he owed fo much refpect to the authority of the chair, as to retract his own opinion. At length the gallery was cleared of rangers, but the question was given up without a divifion, and the Houfe refolved itfelf into a committee, when the following refolutions were moved and voted. First, "That it is the opinion of this committee, that a fum of money not exceeding 647,005l. os. 8d. be granted to his Majefty for maintaining guards and garrisons." Second, "234,160l. 58. 11d. for maintaining the forces in the plantations and Gibraltar." Third, " 6,3581. 38. od. for the difference between the charge of the British and Irish establishment of fix regiments of i foot." Fourth, "6,4091. 8s. for the pay of general and staff officers in Great Bri Sixth, "31,230l. 8$. 7d. 1-fourth, for the pay neceffary to be advanced for the troops in India." 66 Seventh, 59,320l. 135. 5d. to the Paymaster General and Secretary at War, &c. &c. for exchequer fees and poundage to be returned to the infantry.” Eighth, " 11,409l. 76. 6d. for pensions to widows of commiffioned officers." These refolutions were ordered to be reported to-morrow. Mr. Dundas then gave notice, that he fhould on Tuesday next move to ballot for the members of the judicature appointed by the Eaft India bill, to be ballotted for within thirty days of the meeting of par liament. Being informed from the chair, that an election committee food for Tuesday, Mr. Dundas named Wednesday. Some converfation then took place on the fubject, between Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Francis, Mr. Courtenay, and Lord Survey on the one fide of the Houfe, and Mr. Dundas and the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other. Mr. Sheridan and his friends contended, that the notice would keep away members inftead of bringing them down, and they asked, in cafe two hundred did not attend, to what meafure would Mr. Dundas refort to carry the aft into executicn? Mr. Dundas faid, if two hundred did not voluntarily attend to do their duty, he would the very first time he saw that number of members prefent, rife abruptly and propofe the ballot. The Houfe rofe immediately after wards. HOUSE OF COMMONS. ARMY ESTIMATES. Mr. Gilbert, brought up the report of the Committee of Supply on the Eftimates of the Army, which were read a firê time; and when the Speaker put the queftion, that thefe Refolutions be read a tecond time,' Mr. Steele rose to recal the attention of the Houfe to what had fallen in the courfe of the debate on Wednesday laft, relative to the affumed and afferted practice of the Houfe, in refpect to the number of days the Army Eftimates were to lie on the ta ble, previous to their being referred to t committee of fupply and voted. Gentle men on the other lide of the House would recollect, had peremptorily infifted, that it was the uniform practice for the effimates to remain on the table eight days; and the noble lord in the blue rit band had exprefsly fated, that the day on which the climates were prefented was not to be counted as one of the eight days. An honourable friend of his had found a precedent of a contrary pract ce having obtained in 1774; but when it had been cited, the noble lord had declared, that "one fwallow did not make a fummer." Since Wednesday, Mr. Steel faid, he had given himself the trouble to examine the Journals, and had found that it was not a fingle fwallow only, but that a whole Hight of fwallows were to be feen upon fearching. He had found not only, that in 1774, but in many other years, the practice had been to vote the Army Eftimares in lefs than eight, than feven, than fix, than five, and fometimes in less than four days, even after they were prefented. Mr. Steele commented upon thefe facts, and proceeded to ftate the inftances; he began with mentioning the year 1759, when it appeared from the Journals, that the estimates had been prefented on the Tuefday, and ordered to be referred to the Committee of Supply on the Friday folloving; he was proceeding to ftare other inftances, when he was called to order, by Mr. Sheridan, who faid, it appeared to him to be extremely irregular and diforderly to commence à converfation of that fort, when there was no question relative to it before the House. Mr. Steele role again and faid, the debate undoubtedly was of the nature of an adjourned debate, and he had a right to proceed. He then mentioned instances of various years, 1767, 1770, 1774, &c. &c. &c. each of which proved, that the houfe had often voted the estimates at a much shorter notice than they had done this year. Having gone through his lift, he faid, what prompted him to explain the matter fully was, the conftant endeavours of the hon. gentleman, who had interrupted him, to imprefs the minds of that houfe and of the public, with an idea, that his right honourable friend regarded the house with contempt, and that on every occafion he was defirous of trampling on its ufual forms of proceeding, and violating its orders; an imputation not only unfounded, in refpect to the recent inftance of the army estimates, but wholly unme rited by him as nothing, he was perfuaded, could be farther from his right hon. friend's feelings and in entions. Mr. Sheridan faid, Mr. Steele's having been permitted to proceed, juftified him in rifing, and replying, even though he thought it highly irregular and diforderly for any conversation to have taken place on the subject. Mr. Sheridan then said, he was not lefs willing to encounter the hon. gentleman's whole flight of fals lows, than the single swallow of Wednelday, because he should oppose the fame argument to both. Let the hon. gentleman ftare the reafon for the deviations he had inftanced, as well as the deviations from the practice, and till he did fo, the exceptions would avail him but littie. Mr. Sheridan reminded the house, that it had been in that manner, that the noble lord in the blue ribband, and others, had ar gued on Wednesday; nay, his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox) had emphatically faid, "there may be many exceptions to the general practice; but till the reafons of thofe exceptions are known, and the parti cular circumftances under which they were made, enquired into and stated, the excep 'tions only ferved to prove the practice." If, therefore, the hon. gentleman were to find an hundred exceptions in addition to thofe he had difcovered, the argument would ftand as it did. Mr. Sheridan faid, at any rate it was clear, that when it hað been propofed to refer the estimates to th Committee, before they had been eig days on the table, the hon. gentleman, those who fat by him on the Tre Bench were ignorant of the very tions which they now brought fo and which, he fuppofed had been furnish ed them by the diligence of a newly ac quired friend, remarkable for his promp titude to fearch the Journals, which he had often proved, by having in confe quence of fuch refearches, furnished [Mr. Sheridan's] friends with the means of cafting contempt and ridicule on thofe wish whom he was now connected; the ge tleman he alluded to, he faid, he looked for in vain; he did not know wi ther his place was on that fide or the but, wherever it was, he was not feen; nor had he favoured the A with his company fince the first day feffion, having done the extrad thing to divide his principles and vices, and having declared that he his wishes with one party, though dicated his talents to the employ ther. Mr. Sheridan bid the gentler RI |