to make the declaration that he had that day delivered.

The question of adjournment was then put, and the House rose immediately.

HOUSE OF COMMONS. Wednesday, February 8.

POINT of ORDER.

The Secretary at War rofe, and moved that the House refolve itself into a Committee of Supply, for the purpose of taking the Army Estimates into confideration.

Upon the Speaker's putting the queftion, that he should then leave the Chair, Mr. Minchen rose to object to the motion, which he faid he fhould do on feveral grounds, but principally on that of not having received any fatisfactory anfwer relative to the Militia. Mr. Minchen contended, that before they pro.ceeded to vote the Army Eflimates, the Houfe ought to know what was meant to be done with the conftitutional defence of the kingdom. He declared himself a warm friend to the inftitution; but faid, that although he was proud of having ferved in it, he would continue to ferve in it no longer, unless it was the determination of Government to put it on a refpectable footing. He maintained that it was highly neceffary for the Houfe to know what was intended refpecting the Militia, before they voted a ftanding army, because if the former was to be kept up, it might be a juftification of certain reductions in the army, and the favings thereby arifing might be applied towards the expence of embodying and training the Militia. He treated the idea of faving the fum of 40,000l. with contempt, declaring that when it was weigh ed against the sacrifice of the constitutional defence of the kingdom, it was a paltry confideration; he faid, he believed no Minifter would dare to come forward in that Houfe, and propose a standing army in time of peace equal to the Militia. He reafoned on the prevailing idea that the Milita could not be fent out of the king dom, and faid, that those who objected to it on that ground, might as well object to our having any force at all, becaufe there muft always be fome kept up for the defence of the kingdom; and if there was no Militia, there must be a part of the army always in the kingdom, for the purpofe of its internal defence. He urged the great and active endeavours of the Houle of Bourbon to encrease its powers

of felf defence, by having the United States of Holland for an ally, and by other means, as arguments to prove that Great Britain ought in like manner to take every poffible method of providing for its internal ftrength; and asked what could be fo proper and fo conftitutional a force as its Militia? He took notice of the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman in refufing to declare his opinion upon what had been deemed an effential point towards preferving the constitutional force of the kingdom on a refpectable footing; that conduct he cenfured freely, confidering it as an indication, that the Right Hon. Gentleman was adverfe to the Militia, notwithstanding his general profeffions to the contrary. Thefe points were the chief grounds on which Mr. Minchen endeavoured to fhew, that the Speaker ought not to be permitted to leave the Chair, uniefs it were first known what were the intentions of Government with respect to the Militia. He concluded with declaring, that he fhould oppofe every ftup that was taken in refpe&t to the army eftimates, until it was decifively afcertainable, whether the Milina was to be put upon a respectable footing

or not.

Mr. Steele in reply faid, the reafons advanced by the Hon. Gentleman for objecting to the Speaker's leaving the Chair, were particularly curious. The Hon. Gentleman would be juftified by the fame reafons for voting against any confideration of the Army eftimates during the whole feffion, for the whole feffion might rafs before a bill on fo important a fubject, and a fubject that involved in it fuch a variety of great and interefting con fiderations as the Militia, fhould be brought to fuch a state of maturity, as to be ready to receive the royal affent. But what he principally rofe for, Mr. Steele declared, was to fay a word or two on the fubject of what had been imputed to his Right Hon. friend, who had already been mifreprefented, and was in danger of be ing again mifreprefented, infomach he thould not wonder to hear him thortiv stated as a most determined enemy to the Militia. His Right Hon. friend had not the other day faid any thing that could by a far construction be intepreted to fignify a hostile intention towards the Militia, or any unwillingness to give it every poffible countenance and fupport; he had, on the contrary, avowed himself a warm friend to the inftitution, and had made his acknowledgments to thofe Gentlemen whɔ haf.

info laudable a mammer, dedicated their time to digeft and prepare a bill, which they were taught to expect would have been introduced, and which, he yet hoped, they fhould have before them, but had begged leave to referve his opinion upon one fpecific point, till he had heard all the arguments that could be urged upon the fubject. Mr. Steele dwelt upon this explanation, and appealed to every Gentleman who had been present when the converfation took place, whether the fact was not exprefsly as he had flated it? He urged, therefore, the extreme unfairnefs of the manner in which his Right Hon. friend had been treated, and imputed it to a determination to mifreprefent every thing he faid, let it be ever fo plain and explicit. Before he fat down, he returned to the idea he fet out with, and said, a bili for reducing all the ftatutes relative to the Militia into one act, muft neceffarily be a work of confiderable time, to introduce and conduct through the House; it would in his opinion take up three or four months at leaft, and therefore it was fo abfurd to contend, that the army fhould not be voted till the Militia bill had passed, that he fhould fupport the motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair then.

Mr. Minchin role to explain. He denied having faid any fuch thing as the Hon. Gentleman had imputed to him. He had never contended, that the Militia bill ought to pafs before the army was voted; all that he had said, and all that his arguments went to prove, was, that the Houfe ought to be apprized, whether the Militia was intended to be put on a refpectable footing or not, before they yoted the army.

Mr. Sheridan rofe to object to the motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair; but not, he faid, exactly upon the fame grounds as thofe taken by his honourable friend, but upon what he confidered as much more feriously important, viz. for the fake of preferving a strict and invari⚫ able adherence to the establifhed rules and forms of proceeding in that House. Mr. Sheridan urged the neceflity of preferving fuch an adherence on all occafions, and reminded the Speaker that he rested on his authority for the validity and juftnefs of his argument, as applicable to the prefent inftance. It had been, he faid, the well known and established rule of proceeding with the Army Eftimates, to have them lay upon the table eight days prior to any motion's being made for re

ferring them to the confideration of a Committee. This rule had, he believed, been invariably adhered to in every former inftance, but in the prefent the estimates had not been upon the table more than five days, and now it was attempted to go into a Committee for the purpofe of voting them, although at the time that they had been prefented, when Wednesday was nominated, as the day on which they should be taken into consideration, they had heard from the first authority in that Houfe, that the practice had been in all preceeding times not to move for their being referred to the Committee of Supply, until they had been upon the table eight days. Mr. Sheridan enlarged upon the indecency of their flying in the face of the Chair, and upon the confequences that might arife if a bad precedent was once fuffered to be established. He faid, he did not mean to infinuate that any improper intention operated upon the mind of the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the War Office, in thus urging the Houfe to break through their eftablished rules; but if he was to be indulged in every eccentrick flight of genius, there was no knowing into what ftrange extravagances he might not lead them. For his part he wondered from whom he had learnt the idea of breaking through the established rules and forms of the Houfe; his predeceffors in office had been content to adhere invariably to those rules, and in fo doing they had acted wifely.

If the rule was once broke through, it might be abolished altogether. If it was right to vote the army eftimates after they had been upon the table only five days, why not vote them after being there only four, or three, or two days? or why not bring them down, prefent them, and call upon the Houfe to vote them the next day or the very day on which they were prefented? The fame reafon that would juftify the violation of the rule in one inftance, would justify it in all. Besides, in all former feffions, the conftant ufage had been to vote the Navy before the Army was voted; and as the ftrength of our marine was to be the guide, what fort of an army might be neceffary, the vote of the Navy ought always to precede the vote of the Army. Mr. Sheridan argued upon this infringement of the ufual practice, as an additional reafon for not then going in to a Committee upon the Eftimates, and after dwelling upon it for a confiderable time, he took notice of the ground of objection taken by Mr. Minchin, and faid, though he could not agree that it was not

improper

improper to vote the Army before the Militia, or think there required any argument whatever to prove the extreme impropriety of going into a Committee, befides that very ferious one that he had already urged, the abfolute neceffity of a ftrict adherence to the established rules and forms of proceeding in that Houfe, yet certainly the manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had expreffed himself on the fubject of the Militia, afforded ftrong ground of objection to voting the Army Eftimates at prefent. The Right Hon. Gentleman had faid, that an Hon. and refpectable friend of his ought not to shrink from his intention of bringing in the bill for regulating the Militia, because he, a fingle individual in that House had declared he had not made up his mind to one particular point. For his part, Mr. Sheridan declared, he was of the fame opinion, and he hoped, notwithstanding what had paffed, that the worthy and refpectable Member would bring in his bill; the public were already under infinite obligations to him for what he had done, and his introducing the bill, even if it were to fail from that part of it being objected to and overcome, that enacted the meafure which the Hon. Gentleman, and those who had with him taken the trouble of digefting the fyftem, deemed the moft effential point of all, would be attended with this good confequence, it would not only bring the fubject fairly under difcuffion, but it would open the eyes of the public, and convince them who were and who were not the friends of the Militia, and whether there was or was not any defign to annihilate the inftitution. Mr. Sheridan reiterated the heads of his fpeech, and preffed them upon the Houfe to prove that they could not go into a Committee upon the Army Eftimates that day, without violating an established practice of the Houle, and thereby introducing a precedent which might lead to moft mifchievous confequences. [When he was expreffing his opinion of Mr. Pitt's having refufed to declare his mind as to the important point whether the militia fhould be called out annually, and stating fome doubt of the Minifter's being the friend to the Militia that he affected to be, and wifhed to be thought, Mr. Pitt, and those who fat near him fell a laughing, upon which Mr. Sheridan faid their ridicule was not very decent, when the importance of the fubject that provoked their mirth was confidered.] The Secretary of War rofe to defend his own conduct, which he faid he should do

by barely ftating the facts, and leave it to the Houfe to judge from them, and draw the conclufion that thofe facts warranted. There was not in that houfe, he believ ed, a member who had fhewn more refpect and reverence to their forms of proceeding than he had uniformly done for the thirty years, during which he had fat in parliament, and he trufted, he had not in the prefent inftance acted fo as to violate any one of them.. The papers had now been feven days upon the table [Mr. Sheridan faid across the Houfe, no! no! only five !] The Secretary perfifted in his affertion; they were prefented laft Thuriday, and he fhould contend, that Thursday was one day, Friday two, Saturday three, Sunday four, [a hearty laugh from oppofition] Monday five, Tuefday fix, and Wednesday feven; that was a complete week, for he knew of no rule that the whole of the seven should be sitting days, Saturdays and Sundays would ferve as well for the jufpection of papers as any other days; let the House judge therefore whether the papers had not been before them a full week, and whether he was chargeable with any attempt to proceed precipitately, or to violate any established form of proceeding. Indeed he should have imagined the Hon, Gentleman who had juft fat down, knew his character as a Member of Parliament too well to have fuppofed him capable of fuch a defign, and as to eccentrick flights, he could only fay, he was at that moment lefs qualified to attempt a flight than at any other time, had he been fo inclined. [Sir George has the gout in his foot at prefent.] In the course of his fpeech Sir George mentioned Lord Surrey's having rifen, when he gave notice of the day on which he fhould move to refer the Eftimates to the Committee of Supply, and expreffed his fatisfaction that fo early a day was chofen.

Mr. Sheridan in reply faid, the right hon. gentleman had contented himself with attempting to prove, that the papers had been upon the table a week or feven days; but even if that could be made out, (which he pofitively denied) that was not meeting his argument, which was, that the papers had not been on the table the ufual time, namely eight days, and not feven; and in that argument he had been fupported by the first authority in that Houfe. With regard to the ec centric flights of the right hon. gentleman, in alluding to them, he certainly did not mean to infinuate that the right hon. gentleman had taken a flight of fuch altitude

as

as a right hon. friend of his had taken in the course of the past year. [A loud laugh.]

Lord North fupported Mr. Sheridan, declaring he was always glad when he could agree with the noble lord who fat near him (Lord Surrey); but though that noble lord from his zeal for the dispatch of the puble bufinefs, and perhaps from thinking that matters went on too flowly, had, on the day that the estimates were presented, declared his approbation of the propofal to take them into confideration as that day, although it had been at the time stated from the chair, that it had been a conftant practice to allow them to be upon the table a longer time, he muft fay it appeared to him to be highly improper and pregnant with the most ferious confequences to violate an ancient, and hitherto an invariable rule of proceeding. It had been always ufual, he faid, foon after the feffions commenced, to prefent the Army Eftimates, and in a day or two afterwards, notice was given, that the feamen for the fervice of the year, would be voted on a particular day, and the vote on the Navy always took place of the vote for the Army, and preceded it, moft probably, because the feamen and marines were voted without estimate. With regard to the eftimates of the army, they had conftantly lain on the table eight or ten days before it had been attempted to move to refer them to a committee of Supply, nor did he ever know, that the day in which they were prefented was counted as one of the number of days on which they were before the Houfe. His lordship ftrongly urged this, and defired, before the Houfe departed from their ancient rule and ufage, that a precedent of fuch a departure might be pointed out, or that fome publick ground of neceffity might be ftated. He faid, the practice had clearly obtained to prevent the Houfe from being taken by furprize. In the prefent cafe there was not, he believed, any thing like furprize intended; but it was not the lefs neceffary to guard a gainst the introduction of a bad prece

dent.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer made a fhout but elegant fpeech, chequered with a happy variety of serious argument and poignant humour.-He began by obferv ing, he thould be at a lofs to account for the converfation to which the gentlemen on the other fide of the houfe had given rife, were it not for a complaint made a few days ago by a noble lord (Lord Surrey) of the Houfe meeting at three o'clock

and regularly adjourning before four.'This mode of creating a warm debate, and calling forth all the powers of a moft vigorous oppofition on an ordinary question like the prefent, was, he confefsed, a very effectual method of remedying the evil complained of; but at the fame time he was much afraid, if adhered to, would be a means of encreafing another cause of uneafinefs which had alfo been fuggefted, but which, as of lefs importance,he fuppofed gentlemen were willing to facrifice to the former, namely the flow progrefs which the publick bufinefs was making in the Houle.

The noble lord, and the gentleman who had preceded him, had laid it down as a certain and conclufive ground of objection to the motion before the house, that it was contrary to the established order of Parliamentary proceeding to go into a commit tee of fupply on the army eftimates, until they had lain on the table feven or eight days; for the noble lord, in particular, could not venture to fay which; and not being able to produce any written document, to prove that fuch an order exifted, he had argued it on the principle, that it was neceffary to prevent the houfe being taken by furprize on a fubject of fuch confiderable importance. Now, certainly, however found and judicious this principle might in general be, it could by no means apply to the prefent cafe; for he believed no gentleman that faw how well the House was attended, and that observed the degree of preparation that fome gentlemen had made, as well in point of argument as in wit and pleafantry, would pretend to fay, that there was any danger of the Houfe being taken by furprize. In aid of this fact, of the Houfe being fuffi ciently awake and upon their guard, gen. tlemen had moreover difclaimed any fufpicion of the minifter having meditated fuch a furprize. He obferved how unfair it was in gentlemen to fit by and hear notice of a motion given to the Houfe particularly of a motion in the ordinary and regular courfe of bufinefs, without giv ing even an hint of their intentions to op pofe it, nay to fuffer fo many days to pafs over without any fuch intimation, and then to come forward, as they now did, with arguments drawn from a supposed established practice, which no man could take upon him to prove and fubftantiate. The noble lord, after begging the quef tion, as to the exiftence of the point of order that had been made the chief basis of oppofition, had taken fome pains to afcer

tain

:

tain the number of days which the cftimates had lain on the table, but furely his time was spent to no great purpofe; for it would afford but little room for ingenuity and argument to prove, that if the papers were laid on the table on Thurfday then Thurfday was one of the days on which they were on the table; and yet this difficulty it feemed, was one which the noble lord thought it no degradation to his talents and understanding to attempt to folve. An argument had been used by the hon. gentleman, that it would be improper to vote the army eftimates, until the feamen, for the fervice of the current year, should have been previously voted this undoubtedly fhewed in the cleareft point of view, that he and his friends had no very great anxiety to forward and expedite the public bufinefs; for they would certainly, if fo, have given notice of their intended oppofition, and fo have induced minifters to move for the feamen on this day, and poftpone the army till Friday. But in fact the whole of the oppofition to the question feemed to him to originate in the hon. gentleman's well known difpofition to mirth and derifion, and appeared to proceed from a defign to laugh at the Houfe; and instead of permitting them to enter upon a bufinefs for which they were prepared by proper notice, to tell them in plain terms, "well, gentlemen, 1 fee, you are all come down to vote the army, but I promise you fhall do no fuch thing, for I have special reafons to put it off for a day or two longer, and I have found out a number of gentlemen to vouch for me, that there either is, or ought to be, a ftand ing order to that effect." And thus was the humourous vein of the hon. gentleman to be gratified at the expence of the time of the members, and the dignity of the Houfe. However, left the intention of the hon. gentleman might appear too plainly, and fo defeat the object in view, he had taken care to keep himself back in the debate until an hon. gentleman of a graver caft,whofe eloquence was of a mere ferious complexion, and who had argued the question upon more folemn grounds, fhould precede him, and fo cover his main defign.

Having faid fo much more immediately to the question, he begged the houfe wou'd indulge him a few words on a fubject, which however foreign to the purpole, had been drawn into the debate, and made confiderable ufe of by the gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe, in hopes to create a prejudice against him in the minds of

his fellow fubjects. He had, on a former occafion, been called upon by an hon. member to deliver an opinion on a matter of the greateft confequence, and which comprehended in it the two most effential objects of the attention of that House, and of government, namely economy, and that conftitutional defence of the kingdom, the militia. He had begged leave to withhold his opinion on the subject until a public difcuffion fhould have enabled him to avail himfelf of the information he expected to receive from thofe very respect. able members of Parliament and Officers of the Militia, who had fo meritoriously applied themselves to the bufinefs-advan tage had been taken of this hefitation to raife a fuggeftion that he was in general hoftile to the inftitution of the militia, and that in confequence of his being fo, it would be to no purpofe to bring forward any meafure for its improvement-this conclufion was the more abfurd, because the very gentlemen who endeavoured to ftigmatize him as an enemy to the militia, merely because he had not yet clearly made up his mind on a certain particular queftion relating to it, had themfelves deter mined to withold from the House a plan methodically and induftriously arranged, and on the propriety & ufefulness of which in all its parts, their judgments were concluded, merely in hopes of throwing an odium upon him. He profeffed himself to be as much as any man could poffibly be, a friend, he might indeed fay an hereditary friend, to the militia, and fortified as he was in the consciousness of that disposition, he fhould look down with contempt on every illiberal infinuation calculated to injure his reputation and mifreprefent his principles; though were he not fo happy as to feel that confcioufnefs, he should certainly fmart feverely under the cenfures he had undergone and having not come to any fixed and determined judgment on the fubje&t alluded to, he fhould not be provoked either by the wit or the anger of the honourable gentleman, (Mr. Sheridan) nor by his defire to create, or his inability to bear a laugh, to hazard an opinion without fufficient inveftigation, and which of courfe it was not improbable but he might afterwards find it necessary to alter. He challenged any gentleman on the other fide of the Houfe, excepting those who had employed themfelves fo long in an inveftigation of the fubject, to ftand up and avow whether he had himself formed any fuch decifive opinion on the neceffity of bringing out the militia annually, as he

would