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JOURNAL of the ProCEEDINGS and DeBATES in the POLITICAL CLUB, continued from Page 317.

mands of the fame kind than the In the Debate begun in our laft, the publick can possibly answer.

next that spoke was C. Numisus, Besides the inquiry I have menArm. the Purport of whose Speech tioned, Sir, there is another fact was as follows.

which we ought to inquire particu.

larly into, and that is the conduct Mr. President,

A of the magiftrates of Glasgow with SIR,

respect to the demands made upon T is an old proverb and a true them by the rebels. I am far from one, that it is never too late to

fuppofing, but for any parliamentary do well : If this petition was knowledge we have, I may suppose,

I precipitately referred to the com- that the magistrates, or some of mittee of supply, it is not yet too them, secretly encouraged the rebels late to rectify that mistake by the B to make these demands; and if any chairman's now leaving the chair ; thing of this kind should appear, and when the house is resumed, we there would be no occasion to load may discharge the former order, the publick with making good the and then order the petition to be re- loss to the corporation, any further ferred to a particular committee, than the estates of such magiftrates which cannot, I think, imply any should not be sufficient to answer. absurdity ; for however well known C This was the method taken by parthe facts set forth in the petition may liament in the year 1720-21, with be to the honourable gentleman that regard to the South Sea company : spoke laft, they are not publickly for before it was resolved to grant and notoriously known ; and as to any relief to the company, a very the principal fact upon which our strict scrutiny was made into the conresolution ought to depend, it can- duct of the directors, and into the not be known to any gentleman of D value of their estates, most part of this house without a particular in- which was appropriated to make quiry : I mean, Sir, the present good the loss of the company, beftate of the revenue and necessary fore any relief was granted by the annual expence of the city or cor- publick'; and as to the relief that poration of Glasgow; for till this was afterwards granted the company, be particularly known, no argu- by discharging them from what they ment can be drawn from compassion E had obliged themselves to pay to in favour of this motion; and all the publick, I must think, it was a arguments drawn from justice and relief which the publick ought not gratitude will operate as strongly in to have granted, and therefore a

favour of every one of his majesty's precedent that ought never to be folloyal subjects, who suffered by the lowed. rebellion, as in favour of the cor- Then, Sir, with regard to a reporation of Glasgow. Therefore, F ceiver's being robbed of the publick in the method we are in, compas- money ; perhaps, the parliament fion must be laid entirely aside ; and might be induced out of compaslion,

this sum as justly due to to make good that loss, rather than the corporation Glasgow by the pub. ruin him and ihose who were seculick, or as a reward for the service rity for him ; but I cannot think, they did during the rebellion, we that any parliament would or ought hall lay a precedent for more de- G to do this in a committee of lupAuguft, 1749.

Y y

ply,

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if we grant

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ply, without some previous inquiry I believe, every one who has given into the circumstances as well as attention to this debate is convinced, the conduct of such receiver. Af. that those who insist upon our alter. ter a particular inquiry indeed, ing our method of proceeding in this and a parliamentary conviction,

conviction, affair, really intend thereby to dethat the conduct of such receiver feat the prayer of this petition, at was altogether blameless, and that A least for this feffion ; because it he would be intirely ruined by ob. would be impossible for us to enter liging him to make good that lois, upon and compleat the inquiry they there might be room for parlia- propose, during the time we can mentary compassion ; but what. suppose this sesion to continue ; and ever the parliament might be in- if the petition should be defeated duced to do in such a case, it for this seslion, I doubt much if the could be no argument for what B city of Glasgow, or any other of is now proposed, even supposing we of his majetty's loyal subjects, would had been by a previous inquiry con- ever hereafter apply to parliament vinced, that the conduct of the for relief, upon the head of their magistrates of Glasgow was blameless, suffering by their loyalty during the and that the corporation was unable late rebellion. Therefore I must to discharge this debt; because I am think, that the fate of this and confident, the inhabitants of Glasgow Call such petitions depends upon the would raise twice this sum rather issue of this debate ; and that we than have their corporation dissolved; are now to determine, whether this and as they are sufficiently able to day thall be an anniversary of redo so, notwithstanding what they joicing or mourning to all the Jacofuffered by the rebellion, there can bites in the united kingdom; for be no room for parliamentary com- they will certainly rejoice at the par. paffion.

D liament's thewing a disregard to To conclude, Sir, if this motion those, who upon the late occasion be agreed to, I must look upon the shewed themselves firm friends to his nation to be in the condition of a majesty ; and they will have cause to husband, against whom his wife has mourn, if all such as shall behave commenced a process of divorce. in the same manner upon any fuWe must not only pay our own cofts ture occasion, be now encouraged to in the law-suit, but we must also E expect the countenance not only of pay those of our antagonist; and as his majesty, but his parliament, in I do not think, that any husband any just demand they may hereafter should be subjected to this, till it ap- have upon a like account. pears by the event of the suit, that I say, just demand, Sir, because I he is guilty of what he is charged think the demand now under conwith, I cannot agree to this motion ; fideration is so strongly founded in because, I believe, it will not be said F justice, that it stands in need of no by the advocates for this motion, other support, tho' it must be acthat the publick was any way to knowledged, that something is due blame.

in gratitude ; but if this demand

relied upon no other foundation, I The Anfrver 10 this alas made by Q. fhould be against complying with it,

Opimius, Aim. and was in Efect because I am against all secuniary thids :

Grewards : They encourage and proMir. Prilidini,

pagate a mercenary spirit among the

people ; and therefore, I think, we SIR,

have already too many fuch. But AM very unwilling to accuse gen. the people of Glaguzu ak no such

reward:

I

As to

Jeward : They ask no reward for most gentlemen are convinced, he the services they performed : They spoke nothing but the truth. ask no reimbursement of what they this fact therefore, you could not, voluntarily contributed : They ark before a particular committee, have no indemnification as to what they had a fuller or a better evidence than suffered by the common fate of war: you have now before you ; and as to They ask an indemnification only as A the conduct of the magistrates of to what they suffered extraordinary, Glasgow during the rebellion, I and merely upon account of their have often heard, that common fame loyalty : for tho fome gentlemen was a fufficient ground for inducing seem now to think, that neither their this house to inquire into a man's loyalty nor their services were extra- conduct; but I always thought, that ordinary, it is plain the rebels thought it was common bad fame. I never otherwise ; and this made them B supposed, that universal applause treat that city more severely than could give this house any ground for they did any other; particularly as an inquiry. This is the cale with to the two mulas or fines imposed regard to the magistrates of Glasgozu; upon them. As to these only, they their conduct during the rebellion defire an indemnification ; and with has been, and is still applauded by this modeft demand the publick is in all true friends to the government. justice, I think, bound to comply, C I believe no genileman will say he not upon the general principle of the ever heard the least suggetion, that publick's being obliged as far as they, or any of them, held the leaft poffible to make good every pri. secret correspondence with the rebels:

; vate person's loss by a war, but be. or that they did not do all that was cause this loss was very extraor- in their power for deseating the rebeldinary, and occasioned by that city's

lion. It would therefore have been fidelity to the established govern- D contrary to all the rules of parliament.

ment to have appointed any par. If then, Sir, this demand ought ticular committee for inquiring into to be complied with upon the princi- their conduct; and as to all the other ple of justice alone, how strongly must facts set forth in the petition, besides it be recommended by compafuon, their being notoriously known, you when we consider the present cir- have now before you an evider.ce, as cumstances of the estate belonging E full and unquestionable as you could to the corporation of Glasgow ? But have had before any such comit is said, that in order to excite our mittee. compassion, we should have had a There cannot therefore be any previous inquiry into the circumstan- solid objection against our method ces of that eflate, and into the con. of proceeding

this affair ; nor can duct of the magiftrates. For God's any argument be from thence drawn fake! Sir, how would you have in- F for the chairman's leaving the chair ; quired into the circumstances of that consequently that motion can be estate? Could you have had a bet. agreed to upon no other foundation ter account of its circumstances than but that of rejecting the petition, from one who has been the chief which would certainly be the cause magistrate for several years? If any of terrible effects, in case of any gentleman had suggested the leaft future invasion or rebellion. And diffidence or suspicion of his evidence, G as to the effects of granting relief you might even before this com- in the present case, and refusing it mittee have had his evidence con- in any other case of the fame nature, firmed by other witnesses. But it was we can have no occasion to be atraid fo candid and so distinct, that I believe of them; becaule, if there be any

T

other case of the same nature; if there be any other city or town in The next that spoke was M. Fabius Great Britain that can shew, that Ambuftus, Arm, wbose Speech was its inhabitants contributed largely to- in Substance thus : wards the service of the government

Mr. President, during the late rebellion; that many of them ventured, and some of them

SIR,

A lost their lives in that service ; that CHAT the Hon. gentleman who they suffered severely by the rebels spoke last, may not

accuse me living among them at free quarters ; of want of candour, I shall declare, that a large sum of money was ex- that I am for the chairman's leaving torted by the rebels from the corpo. the chair, not only because I think ration on account of its loyalty ; and we have not proceeded in a parliathat the corporation has thereby in B mentary method towards granting curred a debt, which it is no way the sum of money moved for, buc able to pay : I say, if there be any

also because I think no tum of money city or town that can shew all these

should be granted by parliament upcircumstances, I am convinced, the on such a consideration, either to the parliament would readily agree to city of Glasgow, or

to any other pay a debt so contracted, and might person or body politick in the kingdo so without danger of loading the c dom. As to the method of propublick with any great demand ; ceeding, Sir, I do not consider, and if they could not shew these to whether we could have had a better be their circumstances, their case or fuller evidence before a particular could not be of the same nature, committee; nor do I consider, what nor could they with any justice com- we might before such a committee plain, should the parliament refuse

have inquired into: I consider only

D the rules of parliament, which never With regard therefore to cities, ought to be broke through without towns, or corporations, our grant- an absolute necessity : And it must ing the relief now proposed, can be allowed, that according to those occasion no discontent, much less

rules, the city of Glasgow's petition any difaffection ; and with regard to ought firit to have been referred to a private gentlemen, if any of them

particular committee, and the rehave suffered, or have had any money e solution of that committee, if in extorted from them, the government favour of the petition, would of has it always in its power to grant course have been referred to the them a recompence, by conferring committee of supply. This was cerupon them some of the many lucra- tainly the method in which we ought tive employments we have in the ex

to have proceeded, according to the ecutive part of our government. rules of parliament; and I have not Thus, Sir, it is evident, that our F heard one reason offered for our breakagreeing to grant the city of Glas- ing through those rules in the case gow the sum now moved for, can

now before us; nor can I see any be attended with no danger; where- danger in our recurring to the obseras, our rejecting the petition, even vance of those rules ; for the petiin the soft method of the chairman's

tioners are certainly prepared to leaving the chair, may be attended

prove every fact set forth in their with most fatal effects ; and as IG petition ; and if they are, we may think, that the sum sued for is really ftill proceed in a regular method to in justice due by the publick to that grant this money before the end of city, I shall most heartily, concur this session ; for if it be granted, I wiih my honourable friend in his

hope it will be granted by a parmotion.

ticular

to grant them relief.

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ticular bill for the purpose, other. asked for the fufferers, upon that ocwise we shall deprive the other casion. This maxim has therefore house of the negative they claim with been always observed in this country, respect to money bills; because, if as well as other parts of Europ"; this clause should appear no where and it deserves to be so, becaute it but in the general clause of appro- makes the people bold and alert in priation, usually annexed to fome A opposing the entrance of an enemy money bill of great consequence, into the country; whereas the conwhich I suspect to be the design at trary maxim would of courie have preient, the other house must con- a contrary effect. And as there was ient to this grant, or the money bill no body of foreign troops landed to which the appropriation clause is during the late rebellion, I must be annexed, must be loft. This they of opinion, that those who did suf. may look on as a designed impoli. B fer, are so far from deserving any tion; and this may induce them to relief from the publick, that they reject this grant, even though they deserved what they met with, bewould otherwise have approved of it; cause they did not defend themselves; therefore, if I were really a friend for as the friends of the government to the petition, I fhould be for alter- are in most parts of the kingdom ing the method we now seem to be much more numerous than its enein, and proceeding first by a par- C mies, they might certainly defend ticular committee, and then by a themselves, if they would take care particular bill for this purpose. to be properly provided and qualified

But now, Sir, I hall give you for that purpose ; and if they are my reasons why I am no friend to negligent in this respect, they ought the petition ; first, because I think not to be encouraged to expect any no money ought to be granted upon relief from the publick, for the loss fuch an account ; and, in the next D they may sustain through their own place, because if any money were negligence or cowardice. to be granted, it ought not to be Upon this general maxim therefore, granted in the way now proposed. I must be of opinion, that no money As to the first of these reasons, it has ought to be granted, either to the always been an established maxim, town of Glasgow, or to any other not only in this country, but all over place, for making good what they Europe, that in time of war the E suffered by the rebellion ; but as to people of the country where it hap- the city of Glasgow, Sir, I have parpens to be seated, or where the

ticular reasons why I think no money weight of it falls, must submit to their ought to be granted for making good fate, without any hopes of having any part of their lofs.

Gentlemen their losses made good, in whole or may magnify as much as they please, in part, by the other dominions sub- the contributions of the inhabitants ject to the same sovereign. Accord. F of that city for raising and fubfifting ingly, we find, that in queen Eli- their two regiments, or their loss by zabeth's time, when the Spaniards furnishing the rebels with free

quarlanded in the west, and burnt Pen. ters ; but if we consider the cheap. sance and some other places, no com- ness of provisions in that country, pensation was made by the publick we must think their loss a little exfor the loss fustained by the inhabi- aggerated ; and if we consider what tants. And again, in king William's G a fourishing trade they have entime, when the French landed in joyed for many years, we must conDevonshire, and burnt Tingmouth, clude that, if they had been as gewith all the ships in the harbour, no nerous in their contributions as many application was ever made to par- places in England, the corporation liament, nor any relief so much as

would

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