He

wished to say a few words as to how the Parliamentary grant had been distributed. So far as the object of the Government was to prevent the application of any exclusive system of education, he entirely concurred in sentiment with the noble Earl; but his own inference from what passed was, that there was a struggle going on between the Committee of Coun

thinking it their duty to take measures to force the National Society to modify their rules by introducing a "conscience clause." This appeared to be at the bottom of the affair. He believed there was no need for the introduction of any such clause; but if the National Society should ever think fit, upon due consideration, to modify their rules, he personally should rejoice in the change. He regretted, however, that the Government appeared disposed to lay down a rule, which would have the effect, directly or indirectly, of subverting the principle of denominational education as at present understood.

vernment to assist in the establishment of | scendants, in some future generation, very small schools, which could only be might exchange it for another? available to a very limited number of children; and therefore they had laid down a rule, regulating that there should be no grant where there were not a certain number of children who could take advantage of it. Where there was a population adequate to support one school, that school was cheerfully aided. In any place where there was a population more than sufficient for one school, that population being com-cil and the National Society; the former posed of two or more religious denominations, and any one denomination could show that it had a sufficient number of pupils to justify the establishment of a separate school, such separate school was assisted. In one case referred to by a right rev. Prelate, the whole population of the parish was only 1,080, giving 120 as the average number of children likely to attend school. Two applications for grants were made, one for the National school to contain 150 pupils, and the other for the British and Foreign Society's school to contain 252. It was evident that the proper course to pursue was to refuse both applications, as one good school would be adequate to the wants of the parish. The right rev. Prelate, however, complained that the Committee did not act upon the same principle in regard to other denominations, and instanced a case where a grant had been made in aid of a Roman Catholic school. If the case were as the right rev. Prelate had stated it, the Department over which he (Earl Granville) presided would not have a word to say; but in the case of Roman Catholics, the grant was made because they could not attend the Church schools in consequence of the rule that the Scriptures were to be taught in them without note or comment; and the result of a refusal, where there was any considerable number of Roman Catholics, to assist a Roman Catholic school, would be that the children of that persuasion would attend no school at all.

LORD REDESDALE said, that even admitting that there was no new rule, still it was impossible for any one conversant with the subject not to see that there had been a considerable change in the practice of late years. He was not prepared to fix the precise period at which this change had taken place, but the grants to Church schools in connection with the National Society were no longer made in the same manner. It was utterly discouraging to those interested in the Church education of the people, to find that within the last few years the distribution of those grants should have been made on the principle introduced by the Committee of Privy Council. As a Vice President of the National Society, he knew that there had been a change in the practice in regard to the distribution of those funds.

LORD OVERSTONE said, he deprecated THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVID'S said, anything like religious differences when that this was as important a question as they were engaged in promoting the great could be brought under their Lordships' and sacred object of national education. attention. He could not understand on He believed that the contest was about what principle grants to denominational symbols rather than about the real subschools were not to be regulated by the stance of the subject. All were anxious existing state of religious belief in the to educate the people, all were anxious district; because, if allowance were to be that that education should be not tinged made for changes in the future, where merely, but pervaded through all its parts, were these to end? Were they not to by religious principles; and he believed educate children in the religious belief that the best system was one which equally to which they belonged, because their de-assisted all sects to effect this object, leav

HOUSE OF COMMON S,

Thursday, June 5, 1862.

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS.-1° Harbours Transfer.
2o Naval and Victualling Stores.
3o Rifle Volunteer Grounds Act (1860) Amend.
ment; Inclosure.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.-QUESTION.

ing it to each sect to teach the form of religion which it approved. He could speak on this subject from some personal experience. When he came into possession of a parish of some extent and importance, he found the schoolhouse in a dilapidated condition, and a jealous feeling amongst his tenants, many of whom were Dissenters of great respectability. To this contest he would not listen. He reMR. MAGUIRE said, he rose to ask the built the school at his own expense, sup- Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether Mr. plied the funds for carrying it on (except Horsley, Poor Law Inspector, has made the usual school pence), and then placed it his official Reports to the Irish Poor Law in the hands of the clergyman of the Commissioners, respecting the several dis parish-a man whom he knew to be of tricts in the west of the county Cork, a conciliatory character and sincere in his which he lately visited, with a view to asdesire for the promotion of education- certain their condition; and whether there enjoining him that it was for the benefit is any objection to lay such Reports beof all his tenants and of all the persons fore Parliament; also, whether he would upon his estate, of whatever religious object to lay before Parliament any Reports denomination; and that, while conducting made to him by Mr. Horsley of the same it upon Church of England principles, districts? he should never forget the kindly and the powerful influence of conciliation. No offensive placards were to be placed upon the school walls; he positively prohibited the hanging-up of boards which intimated in any form of superiority or triumph that Church of England doctrines were taught there; and the result, he believed, was that the schools were thriving and useful. Not a word did he hear about religious differences, and this end was attained simply by avoiding all offensive forms and symbols. If the same principles were generally adopted, he believed equally good results would follow, and the great cause of education would be promoted in the midst of religious harmony instead of religious bitterness.

THE BISHOP OF LLANDAFF said, the practice which had been referred to by the noble Lord was the system which had been adopted and followed by the National School Society throughout the land. It was the system throughout his diocese, at any rate. But if the practice complained of by his right rev. Friend (the Bishop of Rochester) became general, they would have no schools at all in our small rural parishes, and the complaint that those parishes were neglected would go unredressed. But, after all, the truth remained, that the only persons who assisted in building schools, and in maintaining them when built, were the Church people.

Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at a Quarter past Seven
o'clock, to Friday, the 13th instant,
Eleven o'clock.

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, Mr. Horsley had made the Reports which were specially desired of him; but he thought it would establish a bad precedent if the confidential communications of subordinate officers to Members of the Government liament. He did not wish, therefore, to were, as a general rule, submitted to Parlay any portion of those Reports on the table of the House.

MR. MAGUIRE said, the right hon. Baronet had not answered the first part of the Question, as to Mr. Horsley's official Reports to the Commissioners.

ŠIR ROBERT PEEL said, he should prefer not to lay them on the table of the

House.

COLONEL BENTINCK.-QUESTION.

MR. CONINGHAM said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether Colonel Bentinck, of the Fourth Dragoon Guards, has been placed on Half Pay according to regulation, " by Medical Certificate"; and if not, why the new regulation of 1861, under which no officer has been allowed the privilege of being placed on Half Pay until after a service of twenty-five years as a Commissioned Officer on Full Pay, has in this case been disregarded and set aside? He also wished to ask, Upon whose advice the finding of the Court Martial has been rescinded, and Captain Robertson, who had been sentenced to be cashiered, has been sent back to his regiment, and Colonel Bentinck has been forced to retire?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, the retire- Forests, with the sanction of the Lords of ment of Colonel Bentinck, had not taken the Treasury, have sold to neighbouring place in pursuance of the terms of the lords of the manor the rights of the Crown warrant to which the hon. Gentleman al- in or over any portion of Waltham Forest luded. The warrant would not have per- (including what is known as Epping, mitted an Officer to retire on half pay Woodford, Wanstead, and Waltham Founder the circumstances under which rests), other than the property and rights Colonel Bentinck had left his regiment. Of which the Act 14 & 15 Vict., c. 43, aucourse it was competent for the Crown, thorized the Commissioners to dispose of; which was the authority from which war- if so, had the sanction of Parliament been rants issued, to dispense with it in cases in obtained for such sale; and if so, what which an exception to the rule might seem has been done with the proceeds; in the desirable. On financial grounds the pub- event of such sales having been effected, lic would gain by the substitution of a have considerable tracts of the Forest been junior for a senior Colonel, inasmuch as enclosed, and has the sanction of Parliathe latter was nearer his Major General- ment been obtained for such enclosure; ship. In respect to the general question and if such enclosures have been made, of superseding Colonel Bentinck, he would have the rights long exercised by poorer only remark that when a commanding Offi- foresters of feeding their cattle in the Focer of a regiment appeared to be inefficient, rests been preserved, as well as those and it was desirable to remove him, the enjoyed by prescription by the working action of the Commander in Chief would be classes of the metropolis, of resorting with seriously crippled if the step of insisting on their families for recreation to all parts of that Officer's retirement were not resorted the Forests? to. At the same time it would be most unfair to the Officer if he were not allowed half-pay. The hon. Gentleman seemed to treat the case of Colonel Bentinck as one of undue leniency.

MR. CONINGHAM: I beg your pardon. I think quite the contrary. I think it a case of undue leniency to Captain Robertson.

MR. PEEL said, the rights of the Crown over the Forest were merely forest rights. The Crown had no property in the soil or timber, and had no power to devote any portion of it either to the purposes of common or of public recreation. The enclosure had been made by the Enclosure Commissioners under the Enclosure Acts, and not by the authority of the Crown.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, he had certainly understood that that was the spirit of the hon. Gentleman's Question; at THE STATE OF IRELAND.-QUESTION. all events, it had been thought by some that undue favour and leniency had been MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, he shown to Colonel Bentinck, whereas he be- wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Irelieved that the view taken by Colonel Ben-land, The names of the several townlands tinck himself was that he had been treated by the Horse Guards with extreme severity. Therefore, setting one opinion against the other, it might fairly be presumed that the course which had been taken was not far removed from the just one. As regarded Captain Robertson, the sentence of the Court Martial had been rescinded by the advice of the Commander in Chief, and he (Sir G. Lewis) held himself responsible for that step.

MR. CONINGHAM said, he would take another opportunity to call attention to the circumstances of this Court Martial.

WALTHAM (OR EPPING) FOREST.
QUESTION.

MR. TORRENS said, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether the Commissioners of Woods and

in the county of Tipperary which are to be charged with the cost of maintaining ten extra police on account of the late M. Thiebault's murder. Will all occupiers of those townlands be subjected indiscriminately to such extra taxation; and is it expected thereby to stimulate local zeal in detecting the assassin ?

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, it was intended to charge four townlands with the expenses of the extra police, but the matter was still under discussion. All occupiers would be charged except, as he had said before, the brother of the murdered man. As to whether it would stimulate local zeal to detect the assassin, the charge was in the nature of a penalty on the locality where the crime has been committed.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY wanted to know the names of the four townlands.

412 SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he could] Chancellor of the Exchequer were reportnot give the names. They were, however, ed in The Times, those reports were not in the immediate locality of the murder. submitted to Parliament as official docu

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I beg move that the House, on its rising, do adjourn till Thursday next.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he wished toments. know whether the rumours were well founded that there had been fresh attacks on property and life; whether any measures of repression were contemplated by the Go-to vernment; and when the Special Commission would take place, or how soon before the Assizes, which commenced in the first week of July?

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, it was true that another unfortunate attempt at murder had been made in the county of Clare. The shot had passed through the gentleman's arm, but he was not killed. He did not know whether the assassin had yet been arrested, but the Government were taking every measure in their power to repress these deplorable acts. The Special Commission would issue some time between the 15th and 20th inst.

THE INDIAN BUDGET.-QUESTION.

INDIAN COTTON.-OBSERVATIONS. MR. BRIGHT wished to say, in reference to the answer of the right hon. Secretary for India, that under the present circumstances of a portion of the country, it was very important that the right hon. Gentleman should bring forward his Indian Budget at some reasonable period of the Session, when the attention of Members could be fairly directed to it. His hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. J. B. Smith) had given notice that he would call attention to the operations which were going on in India, with a view to promote the cultivation and greater export of cotton. It had, he understood, been agreed that that subject should not come on that evening; but it would be a great convenience if the right hon. Baronet would bring forward the whole question in such a shape that the House could discuss it in SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he was the manner so great a question deserved. not at present in a position to name the As far as he could gather, it did not apactual time for that statement. The mat-pear that anything was really being done ter would come on as soon as he could find a day when there was no other pressing business. He was quite ready to lay on the table the correspondence which had taken place on the subject of Indian finance during the last twelve months.

MR. A. MILLS said, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for India, When it is likely he will make his statement on the finances of India; and whether he can lay on the table of the House any correspondence on the subject?

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to know if the right hon. Gentleman was prepared likewise to produce any authentic account of the speech made by Mr. Laing?

SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he did not think it would be a convenient practice to lay on the table of the House reports of speeches made in the Indian Legislature.

COLONEL SYKES said, he would beg to inquire, whether the right hon. Gentleman did not know that Mr. Laing's statement had appeared in full in the Bengal Hurkaru.

SIR CHARLES WOOD said, he was quite aware of the fact. He need scarcely, however, remind the hon, and gallant Member, that although the speeches of the

in India to promote either sensibly or
speedily the cultivation of cotton in that
country. He knew that all those persons
in Lancashire who had turned their atten-
tion to the subject were grievously disap-
pointed at the small progress that was
being made in the matter.
The right
hon. Baronet appeared to have fallen into
the error of some of his predecessors in
thinking that the finance of India was a
subject of no consequence-that it was a
mere matter of form, which could be dis-
posed of in the last week of the Session.
At this moment, it was, in his (Mr.
Bright's) opinion, a matter of the utmost
importance; and he appealed to the right
hon. Baronet to press upon his colleagues
that this great question was at least of as
much consequence as the Highways Bill,
to which the House had given up too
many nights this Session. If nothing
were done in India, we should find that
for two or three years to come the con-
dition of Lancashire would be such as to
cause the greatest concern to the House,

to create great embarrassment to the pub-in vindication of his own truth and honlic finances, and to produce, perhaps, diffi- our in demanding that the public report culties over the whole country greater than which Mr. Horsley made to the Poor Law hon. Members anticipated. Commissioners should be laid on the table. He did not address himself to the right hon. Baronet, but he appealed to the noble Lord at the head of the Government wheit was right for a Minister of the Crown to quote from an official document, and then to refuse to produce it. He trusted that the noble Lord's sense of justice and fair play would lead him to publish Mr. Horsley's report to the Commissioners; but, if it were refused, he should, of course, move for it on another occasion.