means of defence. In 1858, the noble "But," says the noble Earl, "you always Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) appointed exceed the estimates." Now, at Gosport, a Commission to inquire into the question the estimate was £300,000, and a conof the naval defence of the country. The tractor had undertaken to do the work for Commission sat at the Treasury, in the less, so that these works will be finished Chancellor of the Exchequer's room-the within the estimate. That is a specimen of very sanctuary of economy. That Com- the manner in which the noble Earl strikes mission comprised the Secretary of the out blindly right and left. Then as to PortTreasury, Mr. Anderson, and the Ac- land. I say the works there will be com countant General of the Navy-all men pleted within the estimate, and when who looked naturally to economy. They finished will be one of the finest works in recommended an immediate increase in the country. It is not fair to the Governthe fleet, so that by the end of the ment nor to Parliament to throw out these year 1860 we might be in possession general accusations. Of course, in some of fifty-eight line-of-battle ships. When of these works there will be excess. With the present Government came into office, docks and breakwaters, and wherever you they found that proposition before them; have doubtful foundations, there will octhe recommendation of the Commission-casionally be excess beyond the estimate; ers had received the approval of Parlia- but that has not been the case at Portland. ment, and we were repeatedly urged to The noble Earl then referred to Alderney carry out that programme. We did, ac- as an instance of great expenditure; but cordingly, by the end of 1860 complete that has been going on for years, and he fifty-seven line-of-battle ships. But then himself was a Cabinet Minister while this the noble Earl says that we ought to have expenditure was going on, and is theredone nothing of the kind, for that we ought fore, with others, responsible for it. I to have seen that new engines of destruc- went to Alderney when I first came into tion were being invented daily. I grant office, not having any particular regard for the fact; but I wish to know, if we are to the works there; I went in company with wait until these new weapons of warfare my late friend Lord Herbert, and we took are brought to final perfection before we the opinions of the naval and military construct our defences, what is to become authorities as to what was best to be done. of the country in the mean while? I cer- There were five forts, all completed, and tainly will not take upon myself the re- there was a small harbour, which I was told sponsibility of leaving the country unpro- was not safe, without additional outlay, even tected on this ground. No doubt the ships for small vessels. Therefore if we did not imwe are now building may hereafter be prove the harbour, we should expose troops improved upon; but is that a reason why in the forts to the danger of starvation, bewe should build none? The only plan is cause the small vessels which should bring to keep up our armaments in the best way their supplies would be unable to reach we can, adopting the latest scientific im- the harbour in rough weather. It was provements. In defence of the late and necessary therefore either to blow up the of the present Government equally, I am forts or to complete the harbour. I was so prepared to show that what has been done anxious upon the subject, which had exin the direction of our national defences cited much feeling in the country, that I has been done as far as possible on the said, "We will only agree to a certain part most economical principles. We did not of the work; so that if we go out of office, the build any new ships, but we adapted the succeeding Government may not be hamold ones to the new improvements and in-pered in its judgment upon the matter by ventions. The new ships of the line laid any large existing contracts." Then says down were only three in number, and the noble Earl, "You ought not to scatter they were only in frame, and we have your fortifications all over the country." I now adapted them for iron-plated ships, admit that; but are we not to defend our so that little additional expense has been arsenals? The noble Earl says, Your incurred. The noble Earl said, "Look arsenals require such extensive defences." at your fortifications; you are making No doubt of it. Formerly Portsmouth and them all upon the old system. That again Plymouth were fortified within a narrow is quite contrary to fact. The fortifica- area, but the progress of invention in tions at Gosport are upon the most im- artillery has made it necessary either to proved plan, and they have been con- give up fortifying them at all, or to do structed with great skill and ability. so effectually against the new projectiles

by carrying the fortifications to a greater in experiments, for at present we really distance. The obvious question for the know nothing practically of this matter in Government to consider was, shall Ports- actual war. We hear one day about the mouth and Plymouth be defended? The Merrimac and other iron-cased ships being Government came to a decision which impervious to shot or shell, and only the I think every Government would come to other day I saw a letter from a naval officer that the great arsenals ought to be defend- in America in which he stated that the ed. But that is not scattering our de- Galena iron gunboat went up to a fort, and fences over the country. Now, as to the that the shot and shell went through her Spithead forts. When these forts were as if she were a wooden ship. You can first proposed, it was intended that the have opinions any way; and as for plans, superstructure above the foundations should why the opinions of inventors are such be granite, or granite armed with iron- that one will tell you it is possible to defor the Americans had even then embra- stroy a fleet in Cherbourg by operations sures of stone faced with iron. But all conducted on the Isle of Wight, and will that was considered desirable to be done wonder how it is the Government are so then was to make the foundations. When blind as not to see the feasibility of the the great question of the necessity of build- plan. Many of the inventions submitted ing iron-cased ships came under the notice to us are ingenious, and some are ridicuof the Government, it appeared to us, that lous beyond conception; but all have to be if any works were to be suspended for a considered and are considered. My noble time, and thus give Parliament another Friend says he hopes that no new works opportunity of again considering the sub- will be sanctioned; but where the fortifiject, it was advisable to suspend these cations on one side are complete, would he works. The vessels which the Govern- advise us to defend one side but not the ment are building are, undoubtedly, of va- other-I think we ought prudently to rious kinds, and necessarily must be so, complete works in progress, and that we because we do not know exactly what sort should do so according to the newest inof vessel will be the best, and the only way ventions; but in respect to new works, to enable the public and Parliament, and by which I mean entirely new fortificanaval officers, to judge which is the best tions, the House of Commons will properly kind of vessel, is to have some of various exercise caution by calling upon the Gokinds. We are not largely embarked in vernment to give reasons for any new any one kind of vessel. The most we work that may be proposed. have are those to which the noble Earl has referred-wooden vessels which we propose to plate with iron, and the first of which was, I believe, launched at Pembroke this very day. They will not be of a very expensive character, but I believe they will be effective vessels; and when we have one or two other kinds, we shall be able to form an opinion. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will not be carried away by the statements which my noble Friend has somewhat hastily and carelessly made. The noble Earl quoted the Earl of Dundonald; but Lord Dundonald found his most awkward enemy in a Martello tower. Forts have been found most effective in many cases. At the present time no iron ship could stand long against iron forts. Any one who has seen as I have, the results of firing at iron plates will know that after a very few shots the plates are fractured, the bolts of the plates are shaken, and the plates come bodily off the ship, which in such a case would be in a worse position than a wooden vessel. We must observe all these things

THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: My Lords, I am sorry to prolong this discussion, but there are one or two observations of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) upon military points which I feel bound to notice. With respect to the policy of the Government, it is not for me to defend it; but I must say, as a Member of this House, that I entirely agree with the course that has been adopted by the Government upon this occasion. I think, under all the circumstances, and considering the difficulties in which this question from various causes has been involved, that they have come to a wise conclusion in suspending-not giving up, but suspending-for a period the construction of the forts at Spithead, and going on as far as they are able with the other works that have been commenced, and are now in various stages of progress. The noble Earl has alluded to the works at Portsdown Hill. I think that any military man who considers the position of Portsmouth will come to the conclusion, that unless Portsdown is occupied, Portsmouth is entirely at the mercy of anybody

late Duke of Wellington, who surely may
be fairly quoted on such a matter, always
said that Dover was one of the most im-
portant points on our coast, and that its
defence ought to come within the system
of defences for the whole country. The
reason the Duke of Wellington gave for
that opinion was this-that the works at
Dover were not at all meant for defending
the harbour. There is no harbour to de-
fend. Dover is an intrenched camp, the
only intrenched camp that we have along
that whole line of coast, and a very vul-
nerable line it is. It is the only position
in which you can place military stores and
military assistance of every kind for the
army that may be defending your shores.
There you have a point d'appui for a
great stretch of coast which is very vul-
And, if you have an available

who can occupy that position. Well, if
Portsdown is to be occupied at all, is it to
be occupied by works or by an army? I
say by works, because by that means you
will require a much smaller force, in order
to hold the position effectually, than if
you occupied it by an army. If Ports-
mouth is to be defended, and it is admit-
ted that Portsdown is the key of the posi-
tion of Portsmouth, as I hold it to be
and I believe the same will be found to
be the opinion of most military men-then
it would require a much larger force to
defend Portsdown without forts than to
defend it with troops and forts combined.
The objection as to shutting up your troops
there is quite untenable. Who are the
troops that would be so shut up? Why,
the raw levies of the country. And pray
remember, if we were to have an invasionnerable.
-and recollect that the whole question army of 30,000 or 40,000 men between
turns upon that, because if it is to be Portsmouth and Dover, I contend that no
assumed that there can be no invasion,
then I agree that these works are useless
-but if you have before you the possi-
bility of an invasion, there is no doubt that
it would come upon us suddenly, unex-
pectedly, and at very short notice. Then
the levies you would have to aid your re-
gular troops would be so raw and inex-
perienced in the first instance, so far as
the field is concerned, that they would be
valuable to you only when in forts-it
would only be when they had the protec
tion and support of such works that you
could make them generally useful. The
argument which has been used in another
place, that it was derogatory to the Eng-
lish soldier to fight behind walls, is the
most extraordinary I can conceive. It
is the first time in my life I ever heard
that it was derogatory to us to use the
resources of science and art in order to
make a small force more available; and
yet, I regret to say, such an argument
came from a military man. Now, let us
see what we require at Portsmouth. We
require for occupying those forts the Mi-
litia and such of the Volunteers as may
not be thought sufficiently drilled and
trained to take the field. You will then
have an available force of, say, 10,000 or
20,000 men who can issue from Ports-
mouth and fall upon the flank or rear of
any enemy who may have landed on your
shores and be advancing on London. But
Portsdown Hill does not stand alone. There
is Dover, which my noble Friend says he
has never heard a reason for fortifying.
My noble Friend will recollect that the

hostile army, even if it effected a landing,
could with safety or security move upon
London. I maintain, then, that the de-
fence of your capital lies very much in
your occupying and strengthening Dover
and Portsdown Hill. Recollect, also, that
on the whole of that line of coast there
are very few harbours indeed, and none
at all that can be entered without diffi-
culty. But at Dover you have a magni-
ficent landing-stage, where, under fa-
vourable circumstances, the largest line-
of-battle ships can run alongside, and
land men and stores. Only consider
what a benefit that would be to an
invading enemy. And, remember, it is
situated at the very point of your coast
which is at the shortest distance from the
nearest Power which could ever land on
your shores as an enemy. I trust, my
Lords, that that may never occur; but
still it may occur at some time or other,
and surely it would be very injudicious for
us to do what the noble Earl spoke of-
namely, vote £5,000 or £6,000 to be
spent in blowing up the works at Dover.
I should extremely regret to see any such
proposal made either in this or the other
House of Parliament. I believe that what
the Government have done at Dover has
been wisely done, and will be valuable for
the general defence of the country. My
Lords, we cannot disguise from ourselves
the fact that we have a very small army
to defend a very great empire; that only
a very small force can at any time be at
home; and that we must mainly rely upon
the raw levies which we can bring out at

any period for the support of that nucleus | Lords who have spoken have, perhaps, of regular troops. Let us, then, put those not entered as fully into military details raw levies in a position where they can be as may be desirable. I do not pretend made available. The only position where that my opinion is as valuable as that of for a long time they can be made available many others, but still it is the same as is within works, where they will get con- was entertained by the Duke of Wellington, fidence and efficiency. It is said that we and not entertained by that great man have not artillery force to man these works. alone, but-as was mentioned elsewhere I can assure your Lordships that we have the other day by a right hon. Friend of a very valuable body of artillery; that the mine-by Napoleon the First also. The Militia artillery have, within a short time, evidence of a gallant and distinguished made very considerable progress, and we Friend of mine has been quoted against have a great many volunteer gunners; the works in progress at Portsdown Hill; and, with a sprinkling of the ordinary I refer to Sir John Burgoyne. But in the artillery of the army, they would make blue-book which contains the questions put most excellent gunners for manning all by General Peel to a certain number of these works. If, on the other hand, you officers as to the effect of the new rifled were to put those men in the field without gun upon works, Sir John Burgoyne states the assistance of works, you would certainly that he considers Portsdown Hill ought to have a poor chance of making them avail- be occupied-that it ought to be occupied able. But place them in forts and they by ten works, and that there should be would prove most useful, and that, too, three works between Portsdown Hill and without in the smallest degree interfering Gosport alone; whereas the present prowith the strength or efficiency of your posal of the Government is that there field artillery. Let me turn for a moment should be six works for the whole of that to another point. I have stated that you line. And what does Sir John Burgoyne might have an available army of 40,000 say in his evidence before the Defence men between Dover and Portsdown, to Commissioners? Why, that if he had the act against any enemy landing in this men to defend the works at Portsdown country. It may be said, that if you were Hill, he should be all for occupying them; to scatter your troops like that, you would but that he does not recommend the conhave no force for the defence of London. struction of those works at present, and he I deny that. You have great facilities for gives, as his sole reason for that recommoving troops by railway. The other mendation, "the want of men to defend morning 20,000 men were taken down to them." He adds, that if it were in France, Brighton by rail in the course of four or he would recommend them to be occupied, five hours, and that too, recollect, in addi-( but in England he would not. That aption to the whole of the ordinary traffic of pears to me a singular argument, and I the country. Indeed, not only was the refer to it because the opinion of Sir ordinary traffic carried besides the volun- John Burgoyne has been much relied upon teers, but an extraordinary traffic also; by those who are opposed to these works. because special trains ran at the same time My Lords, at this period of the evening I to convey the public to see the review; will not enter further into this subject, and and all this was done with great facility I have only to thank your Lordships for and regularity. In the event of an inva- your kindness in listening to me. sion, of course the whole transport by rail- Motion agreed to. way would be taken up by the Government. The troops could come up by two lines of rail from Portsmouth, and two railroads would also bring them up from Dover. The field artillery and the cavalry might be concentrated at Reigate, or some other suitable place. The force, then, in these detached forts would form one army under one command, and would be regarded as detached for the purpose of hanging upon the flanks of the enemy. I have referred, my Lords, to these military points because I thought they had not been sufficiently

House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Thursday, June 26, 1862.

THE CAMEL CORPS IN INDIA.
QUESTION.

GENERAL BUCKLEY said, he would

considered to-night, and because noble beg to ask the Secretary of State for War,

Why the Officers and Men of the Rifle | spondence upon the subject; and, if so, Brigade who composed the Camel Corps whether there will be any objection to its in India, commanded by Colonel Ross production? during the late Mutiny (having received a medal and clasps for services with Sir Hugh Rose's force in Central India), have not received a share of Prize Money?