of the fixed duty, and to one or two | Lord Brougham had not imputed any others, which were peculiar to itself. fraudulent design to the noble Lord or Seeing the President of the Board of his Colleagues; but still the tendency Trade in his place he would ask one ques- might be, without any design, to lower tion. By the votes of the other House of the averages as he had described. If Parliament he saw that a list of new they selected the small agricultural towns, places was given from which averages where grain was usually cheaper, the plan were to be taken, several counties such as might have this tendency in its operation, Rutland and Hereford, and Stafford, and although it might have been proposed with Shropshire, from which there were no re- a different view. turns now, were to furnish them; and whereas there was only one place now making returns from Wiltshire, there were in future to be eight or ten. He wished to know whether those places which were not in the present list of towns, but were proposed to he added, were places in which, generally speaking, the price of corn was lower than in the towns from which the averages had been already taken? Because if this were so, the consequence would be that there would be considerably lower averages, and a tendency to exclude corn. He entirely ap-on the averages. proved of lowering the duty, and he held that nothing but the grossest prejudice would make a man deny that lowering the duty would be a great advantage.

The Earl of Ripon said, that nothing would more clearly show the absurdity of supposing that the selection of a number of small towns in which the sales were inconsiderable would lessen the averages, than a description of the mode in which the averages were struck. This was done by adding together the number of quarters sold, and also all the money received, and then dividing one by the other. Therefore, putting in the small towns, where only limited quantities of grain were sold, would have only an imperceptible influence

The Earl of Radnor thought, that if these towns made an imperceptible difference one way, they would make an imperceptible difference in another; if they had an imperceptible operation in lowering the averages, they would have an imperceptible operation likewise in preventing frauds. He had no supposition that these towns were

The Earl of Ripon had no objection to answer the question of the noble and learned Lord. The principle which had induced them to propose an addition to the number of towns was in order to pre-selected because corn was usually sold at a vent, as far as could be done, the possi- lower price there; they were taken, doubtbility and to diminish the probability, of less, with the view which the noble Earl frauds. With respect to the selection of had stated, but he had not the least doubt the new towns, it had not been done with that the result would be a lowering of the any fraudulent design or intention, nor averages, and a consequent disadvantage from any notion that the averages were to the people. If they took the prices in lower there, but because Ministers had no the small agricultural towns, they would doubt they would be considerably lessen- take the prices in those towns which had ing fraud, if they greatly extended the pitched markets, where the corn was number of places to be worked upon. usually two or three shillings lower than in They went upon the plan, as far as they other places. He doubted too whether the had the means of judging, of taking the proposed plan would have the tendency to principal market towns, which were likely prevent frauds. He believed that these to give a fairer view of the real price frauds had operated beneficially for the throughout the country. If the noble consumer; these frauds tended to lower Lord had looked at the list of towns he the duty on corn, and thus to introduce would have seen that, though there were more wheat into the country than would towns in agricultural districts, yet there otherwise have come. They operated be. were also towns in important manufac-neficially in two ways: they were founded turing and maritime districts, where the on the purchase and introduction of foprice was usually higher than in the agri- reign corn, which might, perhaps, be inju cultural places. The principle, he re-rious to the farmers, but which was advanpeated, on which they had acted was nei- tageous to the people, and by raising the ther to increase nor to alter the averages, price they opened a greater field for our supbut to give a fairer view of what they ply. However much, therefore, they might were, and to prevent frauds. reprobate these fraudulent transactions,

the people had benefitted by these frauds. | scarcity in this kingdom of live turtle. But there was another mode by which this Great dismay was produced. Live turtle new sliding scale would make the bill more was wanted, and live turtle was not to be stringent than it was before. By the had; preserved turtle there was in plenty; Corn-bill protection was given to the but preserved turtle paid a duty, while arable farmers. Now, if protection is live turtle did not. Whether live turtle given, it is given against the interests came under the same category as turbot with which the arable farmer had to and lobster sauce, to which he had forcontend. He had, among other things, merly drawn their Lordships' attention, he to contend against persons cultivating could not say, but it was discovered that grass land. Under the present laws grass- there was no duty upon live turtle, though land had a perfect monopoly in cattle, there was a duty of 20 per cent. upon presheep, &c. He saw, however, by the served. What was to be done? The Treapublic journals, that it hed been an- sury was memorialised. The Treasury refernounced in another place, that when the red the matter to the Board of Customs; the tariff was under consideration, it was in- Board of Customs referred it back to the tended to make an alteration in the law as Treasury; they in turn sent it to the Board to these articles, to do away with prohibi- of Trade; the Board of Trade deliberated tion, and apply a duty They, therefore, upon it; and after all the consideration intended to lower the protection of the which the importance of the subject depasture farmer as against the arable served, because it involved the whole farmer. Thus, the arable land would not principle, it was laid before the Cabinet. require so much protection as it now had He could well understand when the Cabiagainst the pasture land. It appeared to net was assembled how one noble Lord, him, that in divers ways, the new sliding the disciple of Mr. Huskisson, declared scale would be a more stringentand more that this was a question of free trade, and oppresive law, and of greater di sadvantage that it was against all principle to levy the to the people, than the old scale, whilst it duty. He could fancy a noble Duke, not would still leave open the door to all the now in the Cabinet, saying, "Why, if frauds and be liable to all the objec- preserved turtle be admitted duty free to tions which attached to any sliding scale. feed the Lord Mayor, why should not He could not conceive why the Govern- corn be admitted duty free to feed the ment had introduced this bill. The right people? Oh! this will never do." He could hon. Gentleman who moved it declared conceive the Chancellor of the Exchethat he expected no benefit from it; he quer looking at the duty of 20 per cent., said the distresses of the country did and saying, that in the present deplorable not arise from the state of the Corn-laws, state of the public finances such a reducand that an alteration would do no good. tion was a matter of great importance; Then why did he introduce it? He said whilst the free trade would be supported that agriculture did not want so much with great power by the noble Earl oppodrotection as it obtained; but if that site, who would declare that to impose a protection had done no harm to any duty on preserved turtle was to impose a one else, why was it taken away? He tax upon food, and of taxes upon food he (Lord Radnor) believed that the farmers had never heard in any country or at any would be better off without any protec- time. How long the debate was carried tion; but with the right hon. Gentleman on he did not know, but the result was, this was pure innovation for the purpose that a letter was addressed to the Comof innovation alone. Many who were missioners of Customs, dated the 14th of opposed to the Corn-laws might be rejoiced October, 1841, by Sir George Clerk, at this; but why on earth the Gentleman stating that the petition of Henry Gunter, who thought that the present Corn-law praying that preserved turtle might be was beneficial, and that no good could admitted duty free, had been referred to come of the alteration, should propose the Board of Trade, and that my Lords it, he was at a loss to conceive, and he acquiesced in the opinion of the Board was more at a loss, because a short time that preserved turtle should be admitted ago her Majesty's Government had acted on the same terms as live turtle; that was, on a different principle, and had taken off duty free. taxes upon food. In September last a discovery was made that there was a great

The Earl of Ripon observed, that there was a duty on live turtle.

paying duty. He did not know what official reply had been given, but he had seen a letter, signed Robert Peel, stating that the request could not be complied wth. Before their Lordships adjourned, he meant to move not only for copies of this correspondence, but also that relating to the relief from the Ordnance stores, and the turtle. On the main question, he repeated, that for the reasons he had stated, he had not the slightest doubt that the new Corn-law Bill was more stringent than the last, and that it would tend to raise the averages, and to exclude a great portion of wheat that found its road here.

The Earl of Radnor: Would the noble | had petitioned to take corn in store there Earl tell him what that duty was? He and in Liverpool out of bond, without had inquired of a custom-house officer, and was told that there was no duty. The noble Lord did not answer his question; at any rate the duty was reduced. He (the Earl of Radnor) did not quarrel with this; it was a little step, but it was a step in the right direction, it was one step towards letting in food for the people; for he did not suppose it would be denied that if an alderman ate more turtle, he would eat less of something else; and if the change was to admit preserved turtle without any duty, the whole principle would have been admitted. It was a small step, still it was a step towards relieving the distresses of the people. He did not find that any other step was taken for several months, and he had to complain that one was then taken in a diametrically opposite direction, and in a matter, as he thought, of some importance. He alluded to the relief afforded to the Spitalfields weavers. He had seen a letter in the public papers signed by the same Sir George Clerk, dated in January last, in which it was said that the Lords of the Treasury had directed the Board of Ordnance to furnish several hundred blankets, palliasses, and sheets from the Ordnance stores, to supply the wants of the distressed weavers of Spitalfields. This appeared to him to be a gross misapplication of the stores purchased with the public money for the Board of Ordnance. Why should they give those stores to the weavers of Spital fields any more than to the handloom weavers and the manufacturers of Paisley, of Glasgow, of Manchester, of Dewsbury, and of all other places in which there was distress? He had inquired, and been told, that this was not the only instance in which the same thing had been done; he saw by a printed memorial which he held in his hand, from Paisley, that they applied to have the same thing done, because it had been done in 1826; but because something improper had once been done, that was no reason why it should be repeated now. Then it was said that these articles were worthless. If they were worthless, how came they to find their road to the Ordnance stores? At any rate, it was no great kindness to give a worthless thing to the poor people. When her Majesty's Ministers made up their minds to a principle, they ought to adopt it in all cases. Now, the people of Paisley

The Earl of Ripon: with respect to the correspondence upon the turtle, he had no objection to its production. All the noble Lord's jokes, however, he had before read in the newspapers [The Earl of Radnor had not read them]. Great wits jumped. When he had read them himself, he believed that he should hear them repeated in the House during the Session. His memory was not sufficiently accurate, and he was not able to carry his mind to the wonderfully important matters to which the noble Earl had alluded. If the noble Lord had condescended to give notice of his motion, he would have examined the documents, and would have been able to say whether there was any duty or not upon turtle, and what were the circumstances which gave rise to this important question. He believed, however, that a doubt arose as to what the duty on preserved turtle ought to be, whether it were to be taken as fish, or some other insignificant question of that kind, of no great interest except to the parties having preserved turtle. Questions of this trivial nature were not unfrequently before the Board. Some years ago a curious question had arisen. It regarded the importation of a quantity of ice from Norway. A doubt was started what duty it ought to pay, and the point was referred to the Treasury, and from thence to the Board of Trade, and it was ultimately decided, that the ice might be introduced on the payment of the duty on dry goods.

Lord Campbell: and the ice was dissolved before the question was solved.

The Earl of Ripon admitted that. The other documents to which the noble Earl

had alluded, related to a graver question than the mere importation of turtle. He was not aware of the particular circumstances of the case, but it could not be denied that there were many objections in principle to giving relief in the way referred to. He remembered, when the utmost distress existed in the west of Ireland, provisions were purchased and sent to the starving inhabitants, who had no food, and no means of obtaining it; the decision to relieve arose, therefore, out of the necessity of the case. With this important subject, it was not at all fair to mix up a ridiculous question about turtle.

The Marquess of Normanby observed, that the petitioners prayed for the repeal of all duties on corn, excepting generally as far as they were imposed for the purposes of revenue.

Lord Beaumont remarked, that markets sometimes differed for different reasons. At Doncaster, for instance, the price of grain was always higher than elsewhere, because the farmers gave over measure. One object of the Government plan was, to do away with the frauds of the factors, and if that could be accomplished, it would be a great gain; but he feared that the factors would be too many for the Government, and that no plan would be devised which they would not be able, by combination, to defeat. The true mode of ascertaining the real price of grain was, to obtain the return from the grower.

Lord Brougham concurred in this opinion.

Petition laid on the Table.

Bill. 30. Loan Societies.

Petitions presented. By Mr. G. Wood, Sir G. Strickland, Lord Duncan, Captain Dundas, Mr. Raikes Curry, and several other Members, from a great many places, for the Total Repeal of the Corn-laws.--By Mr. Emmerson Tennent, from Presbyterians of Belfast, and Sir Robert Bateson, from Presbyterians of Derry, for Legalizing Marriages by Dissenters.-By Viscount Sandon, from the Chamber of Commerce, Liverpool, for a Fixed Duty on the Import of Corn.-By Mr. Masterman, from the Ward of Billingsgate, and by Mr. B. Wood, from Parties In Southwark and Surrey, for the redemption of the Tolls on Waterloo, Southwark, and Vauxhall Bridges.-From Dundalk, for promotion of Railways in Ireland; from Belfast, regarding the Butter Trade.

COLONIAL BISHOPS.] Sir C. Napier begged to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies if he succeeded in establishing three bishoprics in the Leeward Islands, where he intended that the bishops should live?

Lord Stanley said, that it was proposed that their residences should be at Barbadoes, Demerara, and Antigua, though the act would not contain any provision upon this subject.

SUGAR DUTIES.] Mr. Grantley Berkeley wished to inquire of the noble lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there was any intention on the part of the government to introduce any measure for the alteration of the sugar duties?

REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS (IRELAND.] Lord Campbell presented a petition from Belfast, for an alteration of the law respecting Presbyterian marriages, and complaining of the want of a general law for the registration of births, deaths, and marriages in Ireland. The noble Lord observed, that the law in Ireland was at this moment even more defective than it Lord Stanley said, that, if this were a had been some years ago in England. Re-subject which properly belonged to the cently, the law as regarded this country had been amended, but not as to Ireland, and the object of the petitioners was, that an assimilation of the law in the two countries should be adopted. This was an important question, but he was happy in reflecting that the machinery of the new Poor-law in Ireland would make the operation comparatively easy.

department of the government to which he belonged, which it did not, he was sure the hon. Member would perceive the impropriety of his now giving an answer to the question which he had just put. The subject was of the greatest possible importance, and on that account it would be far more convenient to suffer the question to be brought before the House by his

right hon. Friend near him, in the financial | ing to originate a revolution in Spain in statement which he would have hereafter the ensuing month of April. to make, than for him to enter into a statement of the intentions of the government in reference to it at the present time.

PRESBYTERIAN

MARRIAGES (IRELAND).] Colonel Rawdon wished to ask two questions of the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, upon a subject which had created an intense interest throughout the north of Ireland. He wished to ask whether the noble Lord could afford the

House any information with regard to the period at which the bill, which the Government had stated their intention to introduce, with regard to the marriages of Presbyterians and Episcopalians, might be expected to be laid upon the table; and also, whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce a clause in the the bill, which would bestow on ministers of those bodies the power of uniting the members of their respective congregations with persons of a different denomination of religion?

Lord Eliot said, that it had been already intimated by the Government, in answer to a question put by the hon. and learned Member for Cork, that it was the intention of the Government to introduce a bill

legalising the marriages to which the hon. Member had referred, but that some time must be occupied in the consideration of the provisions proper to be contained in that measure. He could not add anything new to this statement, except that instructions had been given for the bill to be drawn, and it would no doubt be speedily produced.

CABRERA AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.] Col. For desired to put a question to the right hon. Baronet, of his intention to propose which he had yesterday given notice. It had been currently reported in this country that the notorious Cabrera had been permitted by the king of the French to enter Paris. He need not enter into a description of this brave, but most notorious man, or of his proceedings in Spain, but he only asked whether this man, having been placed under surveillance in the south of France, had been permitted to enter or, at least, to approach Paris? He had pretty good authority for stating that he was in that city, or was about to enter it, and that agents were engaged in prepar

Sir Robert Peel begged to state, in answer to the question put by the hon. and gallant Member, that her Majesty's Government had no official information whatever with respect to the arrival in Paris, or the expected arrival in Paris, of the individual referred to. At the same

time, however, he might state, that the same report had reached him to which the hon. Member had referred, in reference to this matter. With regard to the second question he was unable to give any answer. It was impossible for him to say what object General Cabrera could have in going to Paris.

Colonel Fox said, that his attention had been drawn to the circumstance in consequence of General Cabrera having been under surveillance in the south of France, which he could not have quitted without permission.

Sir R. Peel: He could only allude to the subject for the purpose of expressing his earnest hope that the Spanish Government, should any such anticipated outbreak occur, would have strength enough to resist any machinations against its continuance.

Col. Fox wished to ask the question as to the nature of the information in possession of the Government, with the view of refuting the report. For his own part, he did not believe that so enlightened a monarch as the king of the French would lend himself to so base a design.

Sir R. Peel did not for a moment assume or suppose that the king of the French was cognizant of these proceedings. He (Sir R. Peel) alluded generally to the proceedings that had taken place in this, as well as other countries, and he had not the slightest grounds for supposing that the French Government would countenance any attack on the Spanish Government.

He had heard that in Prussia, in this country, as well as in other countries, certain persons had entered into such engagements as had been alluded to by the gallant Colonel, but he could only once more express his earnest hope that the Spanish government would succeed in crushing such attempt.

TURKEY AND EGYPT.] Sir C. Napier wished to ask the right hon. Baronet whether he had given directions for search to be made at our embassy at Constanti