South Carolina could secure the help of a distributing agency like Swift & Co. A great saving could be secured in transportation

expense.

Dr. WELD. Have they any trouble in marketing their product?

Mr. WILLOUGHBY. I think not, because they have good quality, and in many cases southeastern consumers prefer to use the product from creameries that are near their own homes. It is a little fresher, perhaps, but not always.

Chairman MINER. You are looking to the development of the industry in your territory rather than the immediate need.

Mr. WILLOUGHBY. Both.

Chairman MINER. Any further discussion of this paper?

Mr. H. L. BROWN (of Florida). My visit to creameries in those States, including Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama and one or two places in Florida, showed me that they are selling to the different packers; in some places to Swift & Co. I am not sure, but I think the Ashmont Creameries, one of the largest in Georgia, is selling to Swift & Co. And I find it is a matter of bargaining with the different plants. They are using their products.

Chairman MINER. Suppose that is on your car routes and, for instance, you are distributing, we will say, from a section in eastern Kansas into, for instance, that southeastern territory of Georgia and Florida, if the haul is that far. What do you do for return cargo?

Dr. WELD. We can have no return cargo. Most refrigerator cars used in the perishable trade are returned empty. That is unfortunate but necessary for various reasons. First, because there isn't a cargo to take back in perishables. Second, because you can't put nonperishables into refrigerator cars because the dampness hurts the products you put in and is apt to make the car unclean and give a little odor. It is very difficult to get rid of it, although our refrigerator cars are always scalded out with hot water after every trip. That has been gone into and recognized as necessary by the Interstate Commerce Commission that practically all of the refrigerator cars traveling from the West to the East have to travel back empty.

Chairman MINER. Assuming that you were shipping in poultry products from, we will say, eastern Oklahoma to the southeastern United States and these gentlemen were at the same time developing their dairy industry, would you be able to have a back haul on the dairy product you would market?

Dr. WELD. Not to there. It would have to be north of Oklahoma. Chairman MINER. But you could make a triangular route, the hypotenuse from Florida direct and then back to Chicago. Is that a feasible idea?

Mr. WILLOUGHBY. The southeastern territory doesn't expect to have any surplus dairy products to ship to States north of it for a long time.

Dr. WELD. When that time ever comes, it would certainly be feasible to do that.

Mr. BROWN. With citrus fruits is that possible?

Dr. WELD. Those cars have to go back empty-most of them.

Chairman MINER. The fact is that the territory east of the Alleghenies and north of the Mason and Dixon line must be supplied from somewhere. The haul is becoming longer and longer every year as far as the West and Northwest are concerned. We are going way out now into territories that a few years ago were undreamed of, and with bulk transportation-milk shipments in tank carloads, just like oil and things of that sort-you are going to be hauling milk from Minnesota and Kansas into New York and Philadelphia in a year or two. You have got to haul in fodder or the manufactured products, and it is easier for you to do that than do the other thing. Mr. WILLOUGHBY. I certainly hope it will open a new field to produce enough surplus milk to bring it to New York City. It is certainly a shorter haul than to Chicago and Minneapolis.

Chairman MINER. Are there any other gentlemen who want to discuss this paper? We are very glad to hear from any of you. Mr. HARSHAW. In feeding buttermilk to poultry, how do you get the buttermilk back? Do you provide for your own hauling from the separator plant?

Dr. WELD. It is mostly shipped in by farmers in the neighborhood who haul their cream in to where the creamery is located. We bring our poultry right to the produce plant and feed it there. We assemble the poultry at the produce plant. The chickens are fed ten days or two weeks on this and various foods, the fat, and so on. We have very extensive feeding plants for our produce.

Chairman MINER. This opens up an interesting subject because it shows you how closely the question of transportation is bound up with the development of this cow-and-milk-belt and distribution as well.

MEMBER. I would like to know if anyone here can give us an insight into the success that is going to follow the shipping of milk west of New York?

Chairman MINER. You have heard the question, gentlemen. It is a rather comprehensive problem geographically.

. Mr. C. E. HOUGH (of Connecticut). The question that occurs to me is as to the need of it.

Chairman MINER. I think there is a consensus of opinion at the moment that the demand is increasing on the Atlantic littoral faster than the territory is able to satisfy that demand. I am speaking now in wholesale fashion.

Secondly, that the territory will hardly, in a general way-I am now speaking broadly of that region north of the Ohio and east of the Allegheny-permit the growth of that roughage that will be sufficient for the full ration. That is a subject, I know, to debate. I am speaking now in a very broad fashion.

Mr. HARSHAW. Might I just say that the increase in population in the last five years has been 10 per cent and the increase in the consumption of milk and milk products has been 25 per cent. So you can see how rapidly it is growing.

Mr. BROWN. Along that line, it has been brought out by one speaker that it was said by Mr. Hardy, who has made a close study of the milk plants throughout the country, that they are equalizing that milk scarcity by using milk powders, sweet cream, and in some cases unsweetened condensed milk condensed down maybe 1 to 4 and

1 to 3, and then they are using 40 per cent cream. For Florida, for example, they are shipping three solid carloads of 40 per cent cream out of Minnesota during the winter season. That is being used with condensed milk powder made up into a lighter grade cream. Sometimes they use the unsweetened condensed milk that they get on shorter hauls and emulsify it with that in the regular ice cream and make the product out of that. That is being used extensively, and I rather think that will probably be the method of using that from the West.

Chairman MINER. Speaking directly to the question and answering Mr. Hough directly, I call to mind one contract that is in force on the Pennsylvania Railroad. The contract calls for 1,000 cars next year of cream from Chicago to New York in that territory, and those shipments are assembled so that they run sometimes 8 and 12 cars in a train. That is the demand at present. There is a much heavier volume of bulk raw stuff of that sort moving than I had supposed until I got it actually from the leading railway officials in that territory.

Mr. HOUGH (of Connecticut). You do not believe we should import milk from the center of the country to the coast as long as milk is produced nearer the coast?

Chairman MINER. Not the slightest. Mr. Harshaw has just told you of the wide difference in proportion of population increase and demand. If you sat there yesterday in Philadelphia and saw what was going on, you know the value of propaganda and you know what you saw there yesterday was just increasing the demand for that product beyond any ability to estimate the value of x in that equation.

As far as the actual physical handling of the situation is concerned, refrigeration is being developed to an extent now that in some of these cars, I dare say, Mr. Weld's corporation is moving there will be a variation of probably 2° between Chicago and New York. In other words, that product can be refrigerated and put into that car at 46° F. and opened at Chicago at 48° F. I am interested in transportation to a certain extent.

Mr. ALBERT MANNING (of New York). I question whether we should drop this subject at this time leaving encouragement for the immediate future to the southern producer or western producer in supplying this metropolitan district with fluid milk. At the present time the consumer of fluid milk will only consume half of our supply. So we can double our population and still have enough fluid milk produced in this section to supply it. And the eastern producers are only scratching the surface of their opportunities for development.

For the manufacturer of these condensed products there is possible some competition that the eastern producer may meet. The point is whether we want to hold an immediate opportunity for the shipment of fluid milk for long distances, meeting the health requirements which are very rigid in this eastern section.

Chairman MINER. I don't think this is a parochial question. It may be for the present because it is still in the nascent stage. I don't think anybody to-day realizes the change that has taken place in the dairy industry in the last two or three years. When you come to

think of the forces that are enlisted now in the forwarding of this industry, when you come to consider that you are capitalizing in the matter of sociological endeavor-all of these child welfare organizations and the like-some day as a result of this tremendous propaganda and meticulous attention to detail that is being practiced in this industry, you are going to see it flare right up like an explosion. It is coming now. It is a matter of arithmetical progression to see where your 25 per cent is going to fall over your 17.

Mr. HOUGH (of Connecticut) I think Mr. Manning's idea is that we can stand an increase of nearly 100 per cent demand for fluid milk before we will need a quart of fluid milk west of Chicago. Chairman MINER. Yet to-day there is a very considerable quantity of cream moving east. I don't care to see it. I would rather see men in my own territory getting all that they can out of it than to have it thrown wide open. The fact remains, however, that the time will come when you are going to see that equalized very largely because transportation is going to be the ultimate savior of this industry. It is parochial now.

Mr. FRED SEXAUER. Doesn't the very fact that shipments of cream go from the West-and these shipments of cream will gradually displace the shipments of cream from the East-doesn't that very fact point out it is going to be a long time before it is necessary to ship fluid milk from the West to the East, because the cream that is being produced in the East will gradually be produced in the West, because cream is a highly concentrated milk product? Consequently, all the cream that is produced in the East must first be displaced by cream from the West, and that cream that is produced in the East will furnish milk to fill up the volume necessary for consumption in the East. Consequently, I can't see any necessity for a large number of years of shipping fluid milk from the West to the East.

Chairman MINER. If there is any one general idea that has come out of this discussion as far as I am concerned-you haven't had much chance to talk, I'll admit-I believe that the more general distribution, the wider the touch in the interchange of these products the better it is going to be with the industry as a whole.

Dr. WELD. In Chicago, which is the largest livestock center, it seems curious we should ever use meat from Omaha to supply Chicago consumers. But we very often do that. We use the Chicago meat to ship to the Atlantic seaboard for the simple reason we want to take advantage of the shorter haul. We ship through from Omaha to New York, but it takes a day or two longer and we want to have as short a haul as we possibly can. So we use Omaha meat for Chicago and ship Chicago meat to New York.

Chairman MINER. I notice one gentleman whose name is always at the head of dairying in this part of the country, and that is Mr. Greene, of the Pacific slope. Do you want to add anything?

Mr. SAM H. GREENE (of California). I came in so late that I fear any remarks I might make might be quite wide of the meat in the

coconut.

We have some rather long hauls. We also find the same situation the last speaker referred to. As, for example, in butter. We manufacture in California practically enough butter for our consumption,

but we export a considerable quantity, and to make up for that shortage we must take butter from the surrounding States. This situation has come 'about within the last five years. Previous to that time none of the other Pacific slope States thought of looking to California as a market for any butter which they might have to sell. They now, some of them at any rate, dispose of all their surplus in our California market. The same is quite true in the case of evaporated and condensed milk.

We manufacture, I think, about sixty-odd millions of pounds. I am not quite certain on that point, but somewhere around that figure. I should say that 75 per cent of that product is exported, and we import for use in the State some 30,000,000 pounds instead of taking the 30,000,000 out of that which is made in California. That is about the situation.

In market milk we find that, contrary to what would be logical and economical-namely, the zoning of the area of supply around the cities our dealers reach out beyond what seems to be a reasonable source of supply and bring milk in from regions as far as 160 miles away, while milk closer to the cities is going into manufactured products at a lower price to the farmer than he would receive if he sold it to the city for fluid milk.

I have a thought in connection with that that I express quite frequently in California, and if I may be permitted I would like this opportunity of getting it "off my chest " here. There is nothing new in it, perhaps, but I do believe that many members of the industry overlook this fact, namely, that all industries, whatever their nature, are fundamentally the same. Fundamentally, they are composed of the same factors-production, transportation, manufacture, and wholesale and retail distribution. Every industry is made up of those five factors. But some industries are rather solidly built up, and all those fundamentals are under pretty good control.

A good example of that is the Standard Oil Co. It owns its own wells. It owns its own pipe lines and many of the tank steamers and tank cars. It owns its own refineries, of course, and its own channels of distribution. It finances itself under one direction for all its activities. It is, therefore, rather easy for an industry that is organized as closely as that to eliminate the economic waste, to regulate irregular practices, and to bring the work of taking that product from the soil and transposing it into forms in which the consumer desires it with the least possible loss.

The dairy industry is a loosely organized one. Yet, it has exactly these five factors as all others have. But we see here that in production we have the dairy farmer who considers himself as an individual capitalist. Transportation for our industry is in the hands of the railroads and steamers and the motor-truck lines. Manufacturing for the great part is in the hands of a group of people who own no farms or no cows. Distribution is more often carried on by agencies whose principal interest is in some other line, and who distribute dairy products merely as an incidental part of their business.

That arrangement causes a very great deal of loss. I don't suppose anyone could estimate the tremendous figures into which that loss would run. Take, for example, a disagreement between milk distributers of a city and the farmers who produce the milk for that