upon the House to fuffer him to explain himfelf, fhould interrupt another member, who had actually begun to speak. Mr. Rolle fill perfifted in his opinion, that Major Scott had a right to be heard before Lord North, because he rose to explain; and he declared he would appeal from the decifion of the chair, to the Houfe, whofe fenfe he would take on the fubje&. The Speaker replied, that the House would, no doubt, indulge Major Scott to explain himself; but the question was not whether he should be permitted to explain, but who should speak firft: he had given his opinion on the fubject, and would therefore call upon Lord North to proceed, unless the Houfe fhould direct him to call upon Major Scott. Mr. Dundas finished this dispute, by faying that Major Scott would be as well pleafed to explain after Lord North fhould bave done, as before. Lord North then proceeded; he faid he heard no reafon alledged by the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, to induce him to withdraw his fupport from the motion; he had obferved in the Right Hon. Gentleman's fpeech fome farcalm, fome crimination of his Right Hon. Friend, (Mr. Fox) and fome felf-juftification, but very little argument on the fubject matter of the motion; he had blamed his Right Hon. Friend for having conjured up the fears of the Directors, in order to prevent them from voting for an inquiry; and he had himself appealed to their courage, in order to fortify them in their refolution to vote against it, and indeed the Right Hon. Gentleman was extremely in the right, in endeavouring to raise their courage, for it never could be more neceflary than on the prefent occafion; for thofe men must be courageous indeed, who in the face in that Houfe would vote against an inquiry into their own conduct. When he found that the Right Hon. Gentleman had wandered far from his fubject, in order to attack the bill brought in laft parliament by his Right Hon. Friend, he was not a little furprifed; for the conduct of that Right Hon. Gentleman was truly the reverfe of what wildom and found policy fhould dictate. It was a received maxim in law and politics, that it were better that 99 guilty perfons fhould escape, than one innocent perfon fhould fuffer. Now the Right Hon. Gentleman exactly reverfed this maxim, and acted as if he thought that it were better that 99 of his own friends fhould fuffer than one enemy escape. Thus was, that though furrounded by membe who voted for that bill, the Right Ho Gentleman never miffed an opportunity attack the author of it; " and it is u in the cafe of this bill only that he acts f faid his Lordship, whenever he can o way of parenthefis; drag in the American war, he never fails to do me the honour of making me the object of his attacks on the subject of that war. However inclined I might be to resist these attacks, I think it just as well that I fhould leave the defence of that war, which he defcribes in odious colours to thofe intimate friends with whom he is at prefent connected; with that majority that fupports, all of whom gave the moft firm Jupport to that very war, which he now condemns with fo much vehemence." His Lord bip next remarked, that in attacking the unfuccefsful India bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman had charged his Right Hon. Friend with having intended to avail himfelf of the immenfe patronage of India, in order to corrupt the nation. But furely it was not very candid in the Mini, fter to make fuch a charge, when he knew that the bill was to have established various regulations that would have checked the growing patronage of the Eaft. It was known that this patronage had fwelled to its prefent enormous fize through the fault of the government abroad, by which numberlefs unneceffary and lucrative offices had been created; the firft step towards a reform in this cafe was, that the government of India fhould be at home, that unneceflary places might be the more eafily abolished; and that under the watchful eye of parliament, the new board fhould not create others in their ftead; then would that lift which the Right Honourable Gentleman had read to the Houfe, dwindle down to a pigmy fize. The Right Hon. Gentleman was against inquiry, becaufe forfooth, he himself was already fatisfied: this, however, was not a very convincing reafon that the inquiry was not neceffary: the Right Hon. Gentleman feemed to fpeak dogmatically, quafi ex cathedra, on the happy ftate of the Company's finances. For his part, he wanted a committee that might enablė the House to judge for itself, and pronounce as dogmatically as the Minifter: he wanted a report fo clearly and fo fairly drawn up, that the truth of it should be felf-evident, and not depend on the merc affertion of any man, or fet of men. The Minifter 8 Minifter had a fund of promifes, but they tad generally failed; and if any thing cold make him think that the Company's affairs were not defperate, it would be this-that the Minifter had not this day promifed that the finances of the Company bould be reftored. He had contented Linfelf with faying that there was a proheft of fuch an event. He had in a kind taunting way called upon his Right Hon. Friend to fay whether he would not have enabled the Company to make good, at the public expence, the deficiency of 3,000,000l. which his Right Hon. Friend contended exifted at this moment: he little expected to have heard fuch a call from fuch a quarter. He remembered a bill brought in by the Minister, to wave for a time the demands of the public upon the Company, and to give up all claim to intereft on the debt; and yet in the very fame bill there was a claufe empowering this poor Company, that was unable to pay to the public either principal or intereft, to make a dividend among its own proprietors equal to that which they made in their moft profperous condition. Thus had the Minifter made the Company appear in one and the fame bilk poor and rich, infolvent and folvent. When in part of his fpeech, the Right Hon. Gentleman called upon the directors of the Company to exert their courage, he knew they were poffeffed of it, for he himfelf had planted it in their hearts, as he had already experienced in the affair of the debts of the Nabob of Arcot; for though they had repeatedly declared in their orders to their fervants abroad, that they would not, that they durft not pay thofe debts without inquiry; yet no fooner had the Right Hon. Gentleman fpoken to them on the fubject, than they plucked up a fpirit they had never had before, and boldly ordered the payment of thofe very debts, which they never dared before in justice to discharge. Upon this night, therefore, he might well expect an exertion of courage, which would not only pleafe the Minifter, but also fhield themfelves from the confequences of inquiry. Major Scott rofe to explain: he faid that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burke) had denied that Lord Macartney had given reafon to hope that the Madras government would afford a furplus in future; to this he had to say, that he drew his intelligence from a difpatch received by the Company from Mr. Hastings, in which it was faid that a letter from Lord Macartney did contain a declaration to that effect. Sir. J. Johnflone oppofed the motion;` and, as he faid, for a reason that had not been touched upon by any one yet it was, that he would not destroy the most pleafant paffion of the human mind,— illufion. He would not, by an inquiry, hurt the feelings of thofe, who, had the India bill paffed, would have filled the long roll of places, read by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Here the question was called for and put.-The Speaker faid the Noes had carried; and Mr. Fox feeing that most of his friends had left the Houfe under the idea that the motion would not be opposed, did not call for a divifion; when lo a director, Mr. Townfon, faying the Noes have it, Sir James Johnstone, who had fpoke against the motion, faid the Ayes have it, and thus a divifion was called for by the friends of the Minister, though the oppofite fide of the Houfe did not pretend to a majority. A divifion accordingly took place, when their appeared For the motion 45 161. The Houfe adjourned at Half paft nine o'clock. have fuch a paper on the table, he could not object to it, but as his object folely was, to know what quantity of them had been destroyed, he believed there had not been any. The Attorney General wished to know if the noble Lord meant to ground any proceeding of a criminal nature againft the officers of the customs, or the board of cuftoms on the paper, that he moved for He added a few words to prove the officers had not been to blame. Lord Penhryn declined entering into any farther difuffion of the fubject at prefent. The motion was agreed to. GENERAL MURRAY'S PETITION. The House refolved itself into a Committee of fupply on the petition of General Murray, Mr. Gilbert in the chair, when Mr. Dempfter rofe, and, after a fhort preface, moved, "that a fum not exceed ing 5,4891. 175. be granted towards reimburfing General Murray for fo much money paid by him in confequence of two verdicts and cofts obtained against him by Mr. Sutherland." This occafioned a defultory converfation of an hour's continuance, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Fox, the Solicitor General, Mr. Courtenay, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Steel, Mr. Sloper, Mr. Jolliffe, and various other members, took part. It appeared to be agreed on all hands, that General Murray ought to be paid the money; but the queftion in controverfy was, whether the board of treafury, having before them all the particulars of the tranfaction to which the petition referred, and fome of which were improper to be stated in public, fhould pay it, and take upon themfelves the refponfibility; or, whether parliament, ignorant of the facts, and altogether uninformed as to the circumftances of the cafe, hould, upon the bare ground of confidence in minifters, vote the money. After much opinion of an opofite nature, the committee divided, Ayes, Majority for Gen. Murray IRISH AFFAIRS. 57 22 35 Mr. Eden rofe to move the Addrefs of which he had given notice the preceding day, viz. "That an humble addrefs be "prefented to his Majefty, that he will "be graciously pleafed to give directions, "that there be laid before this houfe an " account of all articles of Irish con"fumption, charged in Ireland, with an "internal duty on the manufactory, or a "duty on the materials, ftating and dif "tinguishing the feveral duties." And as he should hereafter have occafion to contend that this account would involve fome confiderations of extreme importance and difficulty in the propofed arrangment with Ireland, he might feasonably be asked why he had not called for it footer he would fairly then acknowledge, that though he had given an unremitted attention to the Irish bufinefs during many weeks, and though he had entered upon the inquiry with the advantage of fome experience in the fubject, he had not adverted, till within the last week, to the particular point which was now the object of his inquiry, and which the prcfent motion would elucidate. He was even willing to doubt whether he was right in his conception refpecting it; becaufe if he was right, it would infallibly place the manufacturers of this kingdom in a fitua tion infinitely worfe even than their prefent fears: it would make an immediate change in the duties on British imports into Ireland, to the difadvantage of the British manufacturer in moft. articles, and in fome inftances to a degree which would operate as a prohibition. And yet fuch a change did not feem to be apprehended by any of the numerous petitioners, who both in their petitions and examinations feemed to fuppofe that their manufactures were to continue importable into Ireland upon the prefent duties: the fame idea feemed to have prevailed at the committee of the Privy Council in all their examinations and even that day he had asked feveral Gentlemen then prefent, whether they had not fuppofed that the duties on British manufactures, importable_into Ireland, were to remain without alteration; and fuch had been the general opinion. He should have been tempted, therefore, to difbelieve the contrary inference which he had now formed, if a repeated confideration of the Propofitions had not convinced him of its accuracy. It would be found in the fourth Propofition, that the lowest duty payable at prefent upon the importation of any article of either kingdom into the other, was hereafter to be the duty payable in each kingdom and in the nature of a port duty: in addition to this, by the fifth Propofition, a farther duty might be charg ed in each kingdom, to countervail the : in internal duty on the manufacture, or the duty on the material. What then muft be the confequence? He would illuft at it by a particular inftance, and would leave others to apply a fimilar reafoning to all the articles of filk manufacture, mixed filk, iron wares, &c. at prefent the duty, payable in Ireland, on a barrel of imported English ale or porter was about four fhilling, and the duty on Irish ale or porter imported into England was much higher; the duty therefore of four fhillings was hereafter to be the port duty on that article in each country: but the internal duty in Ireland on ale and beer happened to be high, and, under the fifth Propofition, might be charged alfo on the English article. Eftimating, therefore, this aditional duty at five fhillings, the articles of English brewery, formed an annual export at prefent of about 80,000l. a year to Ireland, would be charged with more than double their prefent duty, or, in other words, would be prohibited. The fame reafoning would extend, in different degrees, to a great variety of articles. If it should be anfwered, that this was meant, and underftood, he would only fay, that it had never been fo understood by the manufac tures, and would be attended, in many inftances with serious confequences. If, on the contrary it should be faid that it was meant, he muft affert, that the refolutions, as at prefent expreffed, fpecifically ftated it; and it would be difficult to fupport a different inference, otherwife than by introducing a different plan. He would not prefs the confideration farther at prefent, though not unprepared to go into the detail of its confequences refpecting many articles of British trade. He had now twice endeavoured to give a general view of it, and had no doubt that it would be properly and fairly confidered. Mr. Fox feconded the motion; and the addrefs was voted without farther remark. BILL FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF TRIALS BY JURY, IN CASES OF EXCISE. Mr. Beaufoy faid, he rofe, in purfuance of a notice, which he had given the day before, to move for a Bill, the object of which was to relieve a number of perfons from a very heavy grievance, under which they laboured, by extending to them the right of trial by Jury. He obferved, that it was unneceffary for him to enlarge on the excellence of that part of our con ftitution, to which it was his defire, by the prefent motion, to give ftill farther effect and operation, for it was fufficiently felt by every man, and every description of men in the country, and he was happy to fee a gentleman now in his eye, [Mr. Courtenay] who had already, on the fame evening, born teftimony of the high de gree and refpect to which it was intitled, If an Englishman, he faid, were to be afked, on what fecurity his civil rights were founded? he would uniformly and conftantly reply, the trial by jury. If an Englishman were to be asked, on what the prefervation of his political liberty depend ed? his anfwer would be ftill invariably the fame-the right of trial by Jury. In fhort, the trial by Jury was univerfally acknowledged to be the bafis and the bul wark of thofe privileges, from which the people of England derived their boast of a conftitution, fuperior to any other in the world, and of a freedom, which no other people enjoyed. This inftitution, he ob ferved, was in the eyes of the people a greater fafeguard to their liberties and properties, than even the privilege they held of electing the members of the Legislative Affembly. There was ftill a very con fiderable and comprehenfive department of our judicial arrangements from which this happy and favourite inftitution was excluded, viz. the recovery of debts due to the Crown, under the Excife laws. He enlarged upon the fubject of those laws, pointing out their hardships on fuch as were fubject to them, and the manifeft danger they were conftantly in of being perverted to the worst purposes of injuftice and oppreffion; obferving, that a writer to whofe commentaries he believed every member of either house of parliament looked up as the fource and authority of the principal part of his legal information, had before him lamented the defects which he was now defirous of supplying. Here he read from Blackftone the following words: "The proceedings of the "Excife in cafes of tranfgreffions, are fo "fummary and fudden, that a man may "be convicted in two days time in the "penalty of many thousand pounds by "two Commiffioners or Juftices of the "Peace to the total exclufion of the trial "by Jury, and difregard of the common "law." Summary proceedings in fome inftances, he faid, were, from the nature of the cafe, in a great degree neceffary, because where there was a confiderable diftiller, his forfeitures might amount to upwards of fifteen hundred pounds per F 2 week week, and as one half of that fum would be clear profit to him, he could, if he had it in his power to delay his trial and pro. tract the process in a degree equal to what might be done in actions at common law, eafily raife a confiderable fortune, pending the fuit, and retire with it, beyond the reach of punishment. But as the cafes, which he here alluded to, were only fuch as related to the enforcing the payment of double duties, in confequence of withholding the fingle duty; and as the payment of the fingle duty muft have been a thing of great notoriety, done in the prefence of many clerks, and befides accompanied with a receipt, there could feldom arife any great doubt as to the fact, whether the duty had been paid or not, and as the difcretion of the Commiffioners was not allowed in any fuch cafe to exercise it-felf, either in aggravation or mitigation of the penalty, no great danger nerd be dreaded from fuffering the ancient mode ftill to be followed in that particular inftance. But that which it was his principal intention to correct, was the abuse that proceeded from the want of a trial by Jury, in cafes where the exercife of a dangerous difcretion in two perfons, either Juftices of the peace or Commiffioners of the excife, at the arbitrary choice of the officer, and the refufing time for the accufed to make the neceffary preparations for his defence, might be attended with the most fatal confequences to an innocent perfon, to nothing fhort of a judgment for a fum of money, perhaps confiderably greater than he was poffeffed of, and this without affording him the fame privilege to which every other criminal was entitled a trial by Jury. Befides this defect, there was another very nearly equally oppreffive, the withholding from the party, against whom a judgment should pafs, that benefit, to which, in all civil actions, a diffatisfied fuitor might have recourse, the right of appeal. There was, it was true -a nominal court, called the Commiflioners of Appeals, but thofe, he faid, were perfectly ufclefs and hugatory, confidered as a court of Juftice, and ought to be regarded merely as penfions to the Crown, having never fat but once fince their inftitution, in the reign of Charles the Second, and that about thirty years ago. He difclaimed any idea of intending a reflection on the prefent commiflioners, and entered into a moft elegant and brilliant panegy rick on the higher courts of justice, and to the Attorney General, to the example of whofe upright conduct he in a great de. gree attributed the delicacy of the commiffioners, and the ftrict obfervance of the law, which had pervaded every other fubordinate judicial power in the country. His intention, he faid, was not entirely to remove and do away the present fubfifting mode of proceeding, but to leave it to the option of the defendant; to demand a trial by Jury in the court of Exchequer, provided he had an expectation of receiv ing more ftri&t justice there than from the commiffioners, and was willing to run the risk of the expences, which in a trial at common law were fo much more heary than the nature of a fummary and inferior judicature, rendered it neceffary for them to be. He therefore moved for leave to bring in a bill. "To explain and amend the several "laws now in being, giving jurifdiction "to the commiffioners of excife, and the "juftices of the peace in matters relating 66 to the revenue of excife or inland "duties." Leave was accordingly given. HOUSE OF COMMONS. BUDGET. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS. The Chancellor of the Excheqer rofe, he faid, in performance of the most unpleafant part of his duty, that of propofing to the committee the impofition of new burthens on their conflituents, for the purpofe of anfwering the necessary demands of the public fervice. It was, he was fufficiently perfuaded, as much a matter of regret to other gentlemen as it could be to him, to find themfelves called to the painful task of providing for the exigencies of the late calamitous and unprofitable war, in order to bring back the country to its form-· er vigour and importance, and give fta bility to its ftrength and profperity. He fhould begin by ftating to them the amount of the feveral articles of supply, that had been voted, aud that remained to be voted for the fervice of the current year, and would afterwards ftate the way's and means to anfwer them, in order to fhew what the deficiency was that he muft provide for, and what taxes it would be neceffary to propofe. He faid, he was under no apprehenfion that when they per ceived the indifpenfible and abfolute ne ceflity of creating efficient and certain funds |