good; but in all the obfervations made, he faw nothing either to difprove the ftatements against them, or to induce the Houfe to oppofe the prefent motion. Whatever might be their lituation, it was certainly a desirable object to know it; and he therefore chear fully acquiefced in the motion now before them.

Mr. Smith faid a few words in explanation, as did allo Mr. Hulley.

Mr. Vanfittart made fome obfervations on the produce of the falt revenue.

Major Scott acknowledged himself to have made fome ftatements of the com. pany's affairs, which much depended up on circumftances, and he made no doubt would have appeared very fatisfactory had the peace with Tippoo Sultan taken place, as was expected; but as war always made a difference in the ftate of revenues, fo it had in this inftance. It was not, he faid, to be woodered at, that the company

fhould be in debt at the conclufion of a war against all the powers of India as well as Europe; for the fame war had made a molt ferious difference in the national debt of this kingdom. To illuftrate thefe affertions, he read extracts of letters received from Mr. Haftings, containing fimilar obfervations. He faid, from Lord Macartney's statement, the government of Madras was not in any diftrefs, but had, on the contrary, a very favourable profpect. It was to him matter of astonish ment to hear an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Francis) who certainly ought to have more knowledge in thofe affairs, continuing to include expences under the civil establishment, which by no means belonged to it. He instanced in the agents for fupplying bullocks, elephants, &c. after dwelling for fome time on this point, Major Scort concluded with oppofing the mo

tion.

Mr. Burke faid, he intended to make some obfervations on what was then the fubject of debate; but before he proceeded any farther, he wished that fome one of the Directors of the East India Company would give him an answer to this short queftion. How did the Court of Directors intend to provide investments for the freight of the fixteen or eighteen fhips that were to go to China this year?

Mr. Smith (the Deputy Chairman) replied, that the Right Hon. Gentleman having afked a question on a very delicate fubject, he was of opinion that it could not be answered with too much caution. It was not proper that the Company fhould point But the refources of its credit, juft at the

moment it was going to make use of it. He believed there was not a merchant on the Royal Exchange, however opulent, who would wish to be called upon to ftate where, and upon what terms he could obtain credit. Having premised this; hs faid that he hoped the Right Hon. Gen tleman would not prefs him for a very explicit anfwer; this much, however, he would venture to fay, that the Company had fufficient credit to provide cargoes for the fixteen fhips that were to touch at China.

Mr. Burke obferved, that after what had fallen from the Hon. Member relative to the delicacy of touching upon the credit of the Company, he could not with propriety pufh him for any further expla nation he had already given the House fuficient information to fhew the fallacy of the accounts laid upon the table by the Court of Directors; and confequently to evince the neceffity of the Committee moved for by his Hon. Friend; for though thofe accounts frated that a fund had actually been provided for the China inveftments, it now appeared from what the Hon. Director had just faid, that no fuch fund exifted; and that fo far was the Company from being able to create any fund for that purpofe, that it was upon credit the fixteen fhips were to be freighted to China. Here then was a complete confeffion on the part of the Company, by its Deputy Chairman, that the accounts laid upon the table were fallacious. Those very accounts, on which fo much reliance had been placed by the Directors, were now abandoned, not only in the article of the China investments, but in almost every other; the Directors were reduced to the neceflity of defending themselves, by condemning the accounts prefented by them, as inaccurate: new eftimates and calculations were made by thefe gentlemen in their fpeeches, and on thefe the House was to be determined, to take or not to take further steps relative to the Company's affairs; and yet they would not admit that it was neceffary there fhould be a Committee to enquire whether these new estimates and calculations were not likely to prove as erroneous and delufive as those others, which, though laid upon the table as authentic and well founded, were now acknowledged on all hands to be founded in mistake; not to fay that they were calculated to answer the purpose of impofing upon parliament, and upon the nation The Houfe having it in contemplation to give relief to the Eaft India Company,

E 2

had

had, at various times, ordered accounts of its finances to be laid upon the table: in obedience to the order, accounts were produced, which afterwards appeared to be built upon falfehood: other accounts were then brought forward by the Directors, effentially, if not totally different from the former; a third account was next made out, which differed completely from the fecond, and a fourth completely contradicting the former three was laid, upon the table-The Directors having been this day charged with having made the fourth as fallacious as the others, pleaded guilty, by flying from it, or rectifying it in the most effential parts. Thus had the Houfe been deluded and impofed upon by the Court of Directors in every attempt to acquire a knowledge of the real fituation of the Company's affairs. Thele accounts were all contrary; and yet the Minifter and his friends, fo far from withing to reconcile the various contradictions contained in them, would not confent that a committee fhould fo much as inquire into them.

Was not this an admiffion that an inquiry would confirm what he had advanced, when he said that the accounts had been made up for the purpose of impofing upon the Houfe? The prodigious difference between them, could never have been the effect of chance or mistake; for he first made the civil establishment of Bengal amount to 350,000l. the second carried them to 600,000l. the third, 750,000l. and the fourth ran them up to 920,000l. the laft flattered the Houfe with the pleafing profpect that there would be this year, in Bengal, a furplus, of revenue or finking fund of 1,198,000l. exclufive of the commiffion on falt and opium, which was rated at 400,000l. making in all (to ufe round numbers) 1,600,000l. out of which was a fund of 250,000l. was to be provided for the China investments, as the account plainly stood. What must be the indignation of the Houle, to hear now, from the hon. Director, that no fuch fund was in exiftence; and that the China fhips were to be freighted on credit? Though a furplus of above a million and a half had been promifed, there was confeffedly a deficiency of a fum to that amount, which made in the calculation, or eftimate prefented by the Company, a difference of three millions. He could not help remarking an ingenious mode of arguing, which had been adopted and fed, as occafion required, by the directors and their friends. When it was urg

ed against them, that the ftate of the finances in India, were defperately low, their answer was, "You must not judge of our affairs by the ftate of our finances abroad; but by that of our treafury at home, which is at present fo rich." If 10 reply to this it was urged, that the treafury at home, could never provide investments for China, pay the demands of government on the Company, or those who were holders of bills drawn from abroad, the anfwer was, "You muft not judge of our affairs, by the state of our finances, at home, but by that of our revenue in India "-Thus beaten off India, the Directors fled to Europe; and attacked in Europe, they fled back to India, baffling the attacks of their opponents; fhunning clofe action, but manifefting to the impartial world their defeat by this flight. It was to him a matter of much furprize, that the Right Hon. and learned gentleman over against him, (Mr. Dundafs could fit filent, whilft he heard the Directors maintain the accuracy of thofe very accounts, which he himself had concurred with a committee of the Houfe to condemn. In that committee, the Right Hon. and learned gentleman had difplayed uncommon ability, and had laboured with uncommon industry to difcover whether the accounts, which were the fubject of enquiry in that committee, had been accurately stated; he found that every part of them, one only excepted, had been built on error; and he had with great ability, drawn up the report, in which thefe accounts were most severely cenfured, though not more fo, than they deferved; and strange to tell! The Right Hon. Gentleman, tamely fuffered thofe accounts to be again produced, again defended, again maintained.The ability with which the Right Hon. and learned gentleman had drawn up the report, could be only equalled by the patience, with which he every day heard it abused, from the India Bench. As if the former accounts had not fufficiently deceived that Houfe, a new fallacy was practifed this day by an Hon. Gentleman (Major Scott) who, in order to fhew that Madras would not only not be a charge to Bengal in future, but that after defraying all the expences of its own establishment, there would be a furplus applicable to the extin guifhment of the Bengal bond debts; and in order that this fallacy might go down with the House, the Hon. Member faid, that Lord Macartney had himself given hopes that fuch a furplus would

exift.

exift. But it remained to be proved, that Lord Macartney had ever faid any fuch thing; for he for one, would venture to fay, that the noble Lord never had advance ed any fuch thing, because he must know the state of the Madras government too well, to fay that it could produce a furplus. The fame Hon. Member (Major Scott) had alfo faid that an Hon. Gentleman, meaning him, (Mr. Burke) had always been of opinion that fuch a furplus might be raised at Madras.—But this he bogged leave flatly to contradi&; for those who had ever done him the honour to attend to what he had faid, would recolleft he had frequently declared in that Houfe, that the ftate of the Carnatic was such, thar fo far from being called upon to furnish a revenue, it ought to receive relief from this country, as ought alfo the Rajah of Tanjore: and therefore when he heard the Directors express their reliance that Madras would be no longer a burthen to Bengal, but on the contrary, would be able to aflift it, he was of opinion that they thought no abfurdity too great for the Houfe to fwallow.-His Hon. friend who made the motion then under confideration, was better qualified, than most of the members of that Houfe, to judge of the finances of the Company his great abilities had been exerted in the fervice of a body of men, who were not deferving of fo able, fo upright, and fo faithful a fervant. If the company had fill any refources and credit, it owed them to his Hon. friend, who had fupported the interefts of his conftituents, when other more favoured, but lefs deferving fervants had abandoned them. It was not his own view, or speculation of the affairs of India, that his Hon. friend fubmitted to the confideration of the Houfe; it was by the Court of Directors, that thofe very accounts had been furnished, which were the object of his animadverfions; and furely his Hon. friend had good ground for complaining, when he found that in one account, the debts of the government of Bengal, amounted to 6,000,000l. another eftimated them at 7,000,000l. a third at 8,500,000l. and a fourth carried them confiderably beyond 9,000,000l. After thefe various ftatements, he could not conceive how any man who was not devot ed fo far to political connections, as to be ready to declare wrong to be right, could refift the motion for inquiry. He cared not of whom the committee fhould be compofed, whether of perfons who thought well, or who thought ill of the Company's

affairs; for as their only object would be to state a plain matter of accounts, he was fure that they must agree with him, that the accounts in question were founded in downright fallacy and contradiction. Mr. Baring fid, the Right Hon. Gentleman was und r a mistake, if he thought by what had fallen from the Deputy Chairman, that the whole of the freight of the fixteen fhips, that were to go to China, was to be purchated on credit.

Mr. Darrel ftated a number of calculations, by which he would convince the Houfe, that a very confiderable furplus might be expected from the government of Bengal. As foon as he fat down the queftion was called for, and the speaker had read the question half through, when some members cried out," clear the gallery.” this immediately drew up.

Mr. Fox, who ftopping the speaker, faid, he would not have troubled the House this night, if he had not been taught by the cry of "clear the gallery" that there was an intention in fome people. to oppofe the motion made by his hon. friend: a motion on which he could not poffibly have forefeen that when fo ferious a charge was brought against the Directors of the East-India Company, as that they endeavoured to impofe upon parliament, and lead it into error, there would have been found in that Houfe, a man hardy enough to fay, that no inquiry thould be made, whether a charge that immediately affected the existence of the Eaft-India Company's credit, and mediately the intereft of the kingdom at large, was true or falfe. Still lefs did he expect, that the very perfons, who were the object of the charges, fhould be the first to object to, and endeavour to stifle inquiry. This much however, would arife out of their oppofition to the motion, that the impartial world would be fatisfied that thofe who fhunned inquiry were afraid of it; and that the more the perfons likely to be affected by it, appeared to dread it, the more inquiry must be neceffary. The Directors might vote against the motion, if fhame would let them; but in fo doing they would virtually plead guilty to the charge, and fign their own condemnation. The Houfe had long been deluded by the Eaft-India Company; and falfe accounts had been impofed upon it for true; but the day would come, when the accounts now upon the table, would appear to be as falfe, as the calculations of the Right Hon. Gentleman

over against him (Mr. Pitt) would prove erroneous. He now perceived that there was a fyftem in the prefent adminiftration to stifle all inquiry: the oppofition to the motion of this day, was one proof of it; the rejection of a motion on a former day, for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the statement laid before the Houfe, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of the produce of the taxes, was another. The Right Hon. Gentleman feared left a committee fhould difcover and report, that for the fake of impofing upon parliament and the nation, the Right Hon. Gentleman had added eleven days o every quarter of the year.(Here Mr. Pitt laughed out.) Mr. Fox upon this, obferved, that let decency mark ever fo ftrongly the behaviour of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he should not refrain from faying what he thought, and what his duty called upon him to affert : he would therefore treat that indecency whenever he perceived it, with the contempt that was due to it. The Right Hon. Gentleman not fatisfied with adding eleven days to each quarter, had made choice of the higheft, or most productive quarter of the year, that had ever been known in this country, and contrafted it with the lowest quarter that had ever been remembered at the Exchequer; and calculating from the former which had been rendered fo productive by accident only, he had taught the Houfe to believe that the produce of it, multiplied by four, would give the annual produce of the taxes for the whole year. This might deceive the members, who relying implicitly on what they had heard afferted boldly, would not entertain a fufpicion, that there lurked any where a defign to deceive them, and therefore they did not vote for an inquiry: but the Right Hon. Gentleman conscious, of the fallacy of his calculations, and being aware that if an inquiry was once inftituted, the fallacy muft neceffarily be detected, had taken care to fcreen him felf from fuch detection, by fkulking behind a majority. Similar was the proceeding of this day, the fallacy of the accounts laid upon the table by the Court of Directors, could not efcape the attention of a committee in the leaft degree converfant in figures; let the members of it be political friends, or enemies to the minifter, --let them know only that two and two make four (not 22, as thefe two figures were made, to make in the Minifter's calculations) and they could not fail to fee that the Company's accounts were

fcandaloufly fallacious. They would ne find instead of a furplus of 1,500,000 in the treafury of Bengal, there woul be actually a deficiency of 1,500,000 which would make the accouuts fall fhot by 3,000,000l. of the fum for which thofe ren accounts took credit. Was fuch a fum too trifling to be worth an inquiry? Some gentleman feemed to hold out a hope, that this deficiency would be made good, not by increafing the revenue, and thus creating a finking-fund, but by lowering the establishments. But where was the profpect that fuch reductions, would actually take place, They talked of it every year; and every year the Houfe had been told that the next fhould fee reductions carried into execution, and favings made. But when was that next year to arrive? No finking-fund had yet appeared, There was a fund indeed, out of which the minifter was ready at all times to pay the Houfe-it was a fund of promises; he withed he could once fee him establi a fund of performances. Before reductions could take place (and without them there could be no furplus) two things should come to pafs. The directors must give orders that the establishments be reduced, and the fervants abroad must obey them. But who was weak enough to look for obedience, when the moft pofitive orders had hitherto been difregarded? And what could operate as a stronger encou ragement to them to perfevere in their difobedience than to find, that let them fend home ever fo abfurd, ever fo false, ever fo contradictory eftimates, to be laid before the Houfe of Commons, the Minifter will not confent that an inquiry be made, by which the abfurdity, fallacy, and contradiction may be detected and expofed.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he would not have rifen, if the Right Hon. Gent eman had not taken offence at fome mark of levity that had efcaped him, and which the Right Hon. Gentleman had been pleased to conftrue into a mark of indecency: he was not indeed furprifed that the Right Hon. Gentleman fhould feel a little fore; his fituation and difappointments confidered, he was cer tainly entitled to fome indulgence, and therefore he would do for him what he had never done before, and what he probably would feldom do in future, he would make him an apology. It was a little wonderful, that the Right Hon. Gentleman fhould have rifen to speak upon a queftion, on which he had in fact

ouched

touched fo little in the courfe of his peech, much the greater part of which he had employed in debating over again the question of finance, on which he had been foiled on Thursday laft. [Here Mr. Pitt digreffed completely from the queftion, and feemed, for a confiderable time, to have nothing more in view than to make farcastic and perfonal allufions to Mr. Fox.] After fome time, he returned for a moment to the question. He faid, that though the accounts upon the table fhould be fallacious, the fallacy had not been intentional, but had been occafioned principally by the war having lafted five months longer than was expect ed; which circumftance had retarded the propofed reductions in the army from 206 to 120 lacks of rupees, which would produce a faving on the military establishment of 86 lacks. The Right Hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to prove that there would be a deficiency of 3,000,000l. in the accounts of the Company; it was to be fuppofed then, that had he been at the head of affairs, he would have burdened the public to provide for this deficiency: had his bill passed, he would fooner have taxed the people of England to make good the deficiency, than to make any retrenchment in the civil expences of Bengal. He then ran out again against Mr. Fox. He pulled from his pocket a paper that contained a lift of all places in India, one of 25,000l. a year, one of 20.000l. many of 10,000l. 13 of 5000l. 24 of 2000l. fome of 1500l. and near 30. of 1000l. Had the Right Hon. Gentle man's bill paffed, this immenfe patronage would have enabled him to corrupt the virtue of the country, and destroy its public fpirit; but he (Mr. Pitt) did not want to keep this patronage; he thought on the contrary, that a great faving might be made out of it by judicious retrench ments and reductions. He would fuppofe for a moment, that all that the propofed committee could prove, was actually evidence before the House, it would not make him think differently from what he did at this moment of the Company's affairs: for though there' fhould be a deficiency of 3,000,000l. though the debt in Bengal fhould amount to 9,000,000l. ftill when he confidered that the revenue of that kingdom amounted to 6,000,000l. he did not think the debt of fo alarming a nature, as to apprehend that it would injure, much less destroy the credit of the Company; and therefore he would not

for one, confent that á committee should be at the trouble of framing reports, which however true, would make no difference in his opinion of the happy profpect that peace was now going to open to the Company. The Right Hon. Member hhought proper to apply fome fingular expreflions to the directors, faying that their voting against the motion, would be a proof of their guilt, with a view no doubt to deter them from oppofing a motion, which they felt to be improper. But for his part, he would call not upon their fears, but upon their courage ou this occafion; and, he hoped they would be courageous enough not to defift from an oppofition founded in reafon, from any apprehenfion that it would be indelicate in them to oppofe it.

Mr. Fox begged leave to explain: he faid he did not mean by any thing that had fallen from him to fay that he would load the nation in order to make good to the Company the deficiency of 3,000,000l. he would have provided for that by reductions abroad; but he would not have left it in the power of a governor-general to abuse his power, or to refufe obedience to the orders he should receive from home; and which was one great object of that bill, which the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone fo much out of his way to condemo. The Right Hon. Gentleman had faid that he (Mr. F.) was entitled to some indulgence, when his disappointment and fituation were confidered; he wished the Right Hon. Gentleman would fay what circumftance had happened this feffion to justify him in applying to him the word difappointment. He would have thought, that confidering one of the principal events of the feffion, and for what place he was at that moment reprefentative, the Right Hon. Gentleman would have ufed any word in the English language rather than the word disappoint ment.

Lord North and Major Scott rofe nearly together, but the former. caught the Speaker's eye first, and by direction from the Chair had began to fpeak firft, when

Mr. Rolle understanding that the Major wanted only to explain, infifted that he was entitled to a hearing.

The Speaker faid that a member who had been misunderstood, had certainly a right to be heard in explanation; but it was rather out of the custom of the House, that a member, after having fuffered four or five others to fpeak, before he called

upon