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exceedingly defirable. Mr. Eden moved the chairman to report progrefs, and afk leave to fit again, in order to give the parties time for accommodation. On this motion a further converfation took place; but the question being put was carried without a divifion. The Houfe then being refumed adjourned till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Wednesday May 4.

Heard counsel further in the caufe between Douglas and Chalmers. In a committee went through the Scots distillery and the Pickering road-bill, and the Kinnerfley enclosure-bills.

Read a fecond time the commiffioners of the land-tax bill.

Paffed the Edinburgh police-bill, and the Melton Mowbray road-bill. Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Wednesday, May 4.

Came to several refolutions on Ways and Means, to be reported to-morrow. Read a fecond time, the Tobago-Paffport bill.

Read a first time the bill to repeal the cotton act of laft feffion.

Mr. Dundas's motion, for regulating the office of treasurer of the navy, was this day poftponed till to-morrow fe'nnight. On the fecond reading of the bill, for paving and lighting the town of Reading, counfel was heard on a petition against it, who were replied to by counsel in favour of it. After they withdrew, a trifling conversation enfued on the motion for its being committed. On this the Houfe divided, when the numbers were, For committing Against it

40

23

The Houfe then went into a committee on Irish affairs, Mr. Gilbert in the chair, when Mr. Jarvis, one of the petitioners on behalf of the ftuff manufacturers of Hampshire, appeared to give evidence. A converfation enfued on the propriety of examining a petitioner, when it was agreed that he should firft ftate his objections to the propofitions, and afterwards be examined by fuch members as thought proper, after this he was called in and examined; when the House, being refumed, adjourn ed till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMON
Thursday, May 5.

The Commons agreed to the report of the refolutions of yesterday on ways and Means, and the Supply.

Refolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee that the feveral duties impofed by an act of laft feffions on all linens and ftuff made of cotton and linen mixed or ftuff wholly made of cotton wool, do ceaf and determine, and be no longer paid.

That it is the opinion of this Committee, that in lieu thereof a duty of 2d per fquare yard over and above any duty now payable on any former act, be laid upen all linens and ftuffs wholly made of cotton, the manufacture of Great-Britain, printed, ftained, or dyed in Great-Britain, except fuch as fhall be dyed throughout one colour only; and fuch as the greater part fhall be woollen of the value of more than 160. per yard fquare, and under 25. 6d. according to the value of the fame in London, or the nearest markettown, by the running yard at the time the fame fhall be prefented to the excife officer to be measured and taken account of.

That 4d. per fquare yard over and above the prefent duties now payable, be paid upon linen and ftuffs, wholly made of cotton manufactured, printed, painted, rtained or dyed in Great Britain, except fuch as fhall be dyed of one colour only, of the value of 2s. 6d. per yard and upwards, amounting to the value of the fame in London, by the running yard or the nearest market-town, at the fame time that the fame fhall be presented to the excife officer to be measured and taken ac count of.

1

That 18d per fquare yard, over and above all duties payable, to be paid on all foreign callicoes, printed, painted, ftained, or dyed in Great Britain, except fuch as fhall be dyed throughout one colour.

That the faid feveral duties fhall be fubject and liable to the additional duties of 51. 51. 51. per cent. per cent. per cent. by the acts of the 19th, 21ft, and 22d of his Majefty for granting additional duties under the management of the refpective commiffioners of excife in Great-Britain.

COURTS OF CONSCIENCE. Mr. M. A. Taylor then rofe, and after enumerating the hardships to which debtors for fmall fums were reduced, from the prefent modes of proceeding in the inferior courts, commonly called the Courts

of

of Confcience; in the courfe of which he vent very fully into the origin of their :ftablishment, and the progretfive corruptions in the inftitutions, remarked, that debtors fued by procefs from these courts, encountered difficulties much more oppreffive, and were in a fituation infinitely worfe than those who were arrefted by writs from higher courts, in a debt of tool. For in the latter cafe a debtor, after furrendering the property he poffeffed according to the forms prefcribed by law, was entitled, either to be discharged, or receive an allowance weekly from his creditor. In confidering this bufinefs, he confined the arrangements which he propofed to make, folely to London, Middlefex, and the Borough of Southwark, as being beft acquainted with the proceedings in thofe places, but in many refpects unacquainted with the procefs elfewhere; but thould any gentleman communicate any information to him, which may enable him to enlarge his plan, he was willing to make it more comprehenfive, and include every other part of the kingdom, fubject to fuch a jurifdiction. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill for regulating the proceedings of the Courts of Confcience in London, Middlefex, and the Borough of

Southwark.

Sir Jofeph Mawbey, in a fhort fpeech, feconded the motion; after which leave =was granted.

MINORCA PETITION.

Lord Penrhyn presented a petition from Meffrs. Fullers, agents for the traders of the island of Minorca, ftating the difficulties under which they laboured from a deprivation of the intercourfe with North America, which they formerly poffeffed; and praying to be heard by their counfel on the allegations. His Lordship faid he intended to move that the petition lie on the table for the purpose of its being confidered by the Members at their leisure, and afterwards move that it be referred to a committee of the whole Houfe; but if any day was open in this or the follow ing week, he would prefer making a motion now, that it be taken into confideration on fuch day,

Mr. Pitt recommended to him to move at prefent for the petition to lie on the table, as the other motion would, in all probability lead to a debate, which, confidering the bufinefs already before the Houfe, fhould undoubtedly be on this day avoided.

Lord Penrhyn agreeing, the petition was brought up, and ordered to lie on the table.

IRISH TRADE.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, thought it neceffary in addition to an intimation which he had before given, to repeat this notice to the Houfe, that confidering the prefent state of the question relating to the Irish propofitions, he faw no reason to defer calling for a decifion on them on this day fe'nnight. There now remained only the petition from Stafford for the Houfe to take into confideration, nor was there any certainty that more petitions It was mentioned would be offered. that one was expected from Liverpool, but even if it were fo, the Houfe would have time enough to go into it, and have the whole evidence printed by Monday next. He therefore wifhed the House to understand, that on Thursday next he would bring on that question to be finally agitated.

Lord Penrhyn faid he expected the pe tition in town this day, which he underftood to be preparing in Liverpool.

Mr. Eden faid, that previous to the Houfe coming to a general decifion on the queftion, he wished for fome information on the fubject of the 5th propofition, relating to countervailing duties. The fituation of the manufacturers he wished principally to be attended to, and therefore moved, that there be laid before the Houfe an account of the duty on the raw materials for filk manufacture in Ireland, &c.

The question being put on this motion, it was agreed to.

Mr. Fox was apprehensive that this day fe'nnight would be much too early a period for agitating the important subject of the Irish regulations. It was yet expected that more petitions would be prefented, the proceedings on which could not certainly be printed before that time, at least fo foon as to enable the House to Even the judge deliberately on them. proceedings which were already taken on petitions were not yet printed, notwithftanding their extent and importance. However, fhould the Right Hon. Gentleman perfift in his defign of deciding on the queftion this day fe'nnight, he gave any influnotice, that, as far as he had ence in the Houfe, the call, which food for Wednesday next, fhould be enforced in its utmost rigour.

Mr. Pitt replied, he certainly fhould perfift

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Mr. Francis rofe in compliance with the notice given to the Houfe, in order to ftate fuch obfervations as had occurred to him on the prefent ftate of the affairs of the Eaft-India Company. In doing this, he did not intend to trouble the Houfe with a great extent of calculations, or a variety of remarks. Confining himself to a plain statement of facts, he would pay the utmost attention to brevity, at the fame time attentive that no violence should be offered either to truth or precifion. With this view he would leave out of the queftion what was the fituation of Madras or Bombay, as well as the other fettlements, taking it for granted, that no perfon would difpute the badnefs of their fituation, or the infufficiency of their revenues; and confidering them as hanging on the revenues of Bengal, and depending on it for support and protection, nay, even for their very exiftence he would therefore confine himself to Bengal, comparing its revenue with its expenditure, and by fhewing that it was unequal to its own fupport, leave the House and the public to infer how much it fhould be relied on to fuftain the other dependencies. On a question then, which admitted of a very complicated and extenfive view, in which every point but added gloom to the melancholy profpect, in withdrawing all the adjuncts, and concentering his remarks, he undoubtedly made fo many conceffions on the other fide of the question. He therefore requested that when gentlemen came to answer to the pofitions he should lay down, they might forbear to controvert him by idle fpeculation, by eloquent declamation, or by hopes grounded on hypothefis. He should reafon from public documents and matter of fact; his opponents had the fame materials, and to a greater extent; and to them he hoped they would confine them felves. He had now only to add before his entering on the particulars, that when he taxed the infallibility of the laft India directors; nay, when he went further, and afferted that the accounts they had

laid before the Houfe were imperfe
Gents
contradictory, and fallacious.
men may remember, that he was not th
firft nor the only perfon who had mad
The Houfe wer
fimilar declarations.
accustomed to hear perfons, for whom
they muft join him in entertaining the
highest refpect, question their proceedings
as much as he should do. Before he pro-
ceeded to comment on the variety and
contradictions in the reports laid before
the Houfe by the directors, he would firf
fay a word or two on the omiffions in
them, and begin by that eftimate, which
rated the establishment of Bengal at
927,000l. There he could of his own
knowledge, point out omiffions under the
heads of perquifites and emoluments un-
known, which amounted to confiderably
more than 100,000l. Among these, he
mentioned the agents for bullocks, carts,
elephants, gun-powder, &c. which were
in thefe places important and lucrative,
though not thought worthy to be included
in their eftimates.

After ftating thus much under the arti cle of omiflions, the House would naturally imagine he went to the utmost extent; but he had yet to inform them, that there remained a circunftance beyond all this, for which no apology could be made, be ing one of the firft articles which should prefent itfelf. He meant the marine efta blishment, which was entirely omitted; eftimating this at between 70 and 80,000l. the omiffion, as far as came within his knowledge, was no lefs than 170 or 180,000l. From thefe obfervations he prefumed there was no great occafion to dwell much longer on proving the circumftance of confiderable omiffions in the eftimates; and difmiffing that point, he was next led to confider the contradictions. In 1784, the account given by the Direc tors in general terms, of the amount of the civil eftablishment of Bengal, comput ed it at 350,000l. per ann. but when the particulars were afterwards on a motion ordered to be laid before the House, the eftimate appeared to be no lefs than the fum which he had before ftated of 927,000l. on the fame eftablishment. A third paper was delivered on the 11th of March, ftating the establishment at 616,000l. and a fourth account altered that again to 764,000l. He reminded the Houfe that when thefe fubjects were laft year agitated, he contradicted the reports and calculations which were then made; the Directors pledged themselves to reduce the eftablishment to 350,000l. after

the

the peace; in order to produce a furplus of 1,100,000l. to pay off their debts: the contention was now at ffue, and it was plain how far they were from fulfilling their promife. They had also stated the army eftablishment at 178,000l. which, to his knowledge, and he was ready to prove it by authentic documents, amounted to 1,500,000l. which would bring the whole eftablishment, civil and military, to about two millions and an half. That he did not without reafon affert the fallibility of the Court of Directors would appear, when he stated their promifes in 1784, when the news of peace should reach Bengal, no further bills would be drawn on them from abroad, but on the contrary, they would have remittances fufficient to pay off their former loans. Such were the promises, in order to get liberty to accept bills. How they had failed in the performance was well known; but to make it more glaring, he had only to mention, that the news of peace reached Bengal in June 1783, and the first dif Fatches received by the Company, inftead of remittances, contained bilis drawn on them to the amount of near half a million. On this occafion the Directors paft orders not to have any more bills drawn, when, to their great furprife, as they termed it, fresh drafts came over to the amount of 5,500,000l. In this there was fufficient ground of furprise to the public, though in his opinion by no means fo to the directors for were they to be surprised at difobedience to their orders, their entire lives must be an uninterrupted fcene of aftonishment, and their time confumed at ftaring in each other's faces. On this occafion they, inftead of complying with their orders, had recourfe to appeals in the newspapers, and fuch other publications. The Directors on the other hand, appeared to confole themselves with an idea that the fubfcribers to the loan would take back their own bills instead of payment; in the event of which they would find themselves totally mistaken. By the laft eftimates to the first of May, 1785, which he confidered as moft authentic, it appeared that the annual disbursement in a year of peace was eight millions; and notwithstanding this, they afferted 14 months fince, that their revenues were in a train of very great improvement. That a confiderable furplus would appear in May 1785, amounting at lealt 1,100,000l. beside the salt and opium which should amount to 1,684,000l. By the statements he laid down, however, it

to

would appear that inftead of this furplus in the civil eftablishment, there was a deficiency of 1,769,000l. ; and in the whole difbursements, there was in one year, a deficiency of more than three millions. He alfo calculated, that the revenue on falt, instead of improving, was in the late eftimates reduced three fifths of its former amount.They had alfo promifed themfelves, and the public, much from their advantages in the China trade; but without mentioning the expence of employing 18 veffels on that fervice, the amount of which he was not acquainted with, their calculations on that head had fallen fhort every year, by at least 250,000l. From all these premises, he thought himself warranted to infer, that the Directors had endeavoured to throw falfe lights on the fituation of their affairs; that they betrayed a manifeft intention to mislead the Houfe by fallacy and impofition; and he appealed to the House whether he failed in the obfervation now made. To prove the affertions with which he fet out, and which he was going to recapitulate, namely that the prefent eftimate contained omiffions; that it contradicted former ones; that the army eftimates were false; in fine, that it was an impofition on the House and the public. Though not accustomed to use fuch harsh expreffions, they were fuch as the facts bore him out in, and what he was ready at all times, if called upon, and would pledge himself to prove, to the conviction of every unprejudiced and impartial man. Reflecting then on the intimate connection there fubfifted between the interefts of this country, and thofe of the East India Company, and how much the profperity of one would be affected by that of the other, he hoped no friend to either coun try would object to the motion he should now make, namely, "That a Committee "be appointed to take into confideration "the feveral lifts and statements of the "expences of the Eaft India Company's "establishments in India, which have "been laid before this House, in the "courfe of the prefent year by the Court "of Directors; alfo the estimates of the "probable receipts and disbursements of "the Bengal government for the year; "alfo the lifts of statements, expences, "&c. which have been laid before this "House by the Court of Directors, in the "courfe of the laft Seffions of parlia 66 ment; and that they do report the re"fult, with their obfervations and com "parisons,"

E

Mr.

Mr. Smith, (Deputy Chairman of the Court of Directors) faid, that when fo ferious and heavy a charge was brought against the Court of Directors as the Houfe had heard this day, it was a duty which they owed, as well to the public as their own reputations, to inquire into the circumftance on which this accufation was founded. For his part, he was not will ing to follow the Hon. Gentleman through the whole of his calculations, there were many of them which he was ready to fhew were not to be relied on. As to the difference in the statements mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman, he was ready to allow it, as the difference which particular circumftances made in particular departments, produced a difference in the expenditure, and of courfe a variation in the eftimates. Adverting then to various particulars, he faid, he was not fure the China fhips amounted to more than fixteen, and there was the moft flattering profpect at prefent from the fuccefs of that trade. The fales from March 1784, to March 1785, he stated to amount to 3,300,000l. and he made no doubt of the fales this year exceeding that fum confiderably, and by that means enabling the company to discharge a great part of their debt. The Hon. Gentleman, he faid, from a defire to give the worst appearance to things, forbore to mention the ftate of affairs at home, and confined himself to the company's fituation abroad; but he would mention what appeared to him to be the real state of their affairs in a general view. It must be expected, that additional bills would yet be drawn on the Company, but the returns expected muft be infinitely beyond any thing their bills could amount to. He acknowledged that Bombay must be expenfive to the establishment at Bengal, to the amount of from 40 to 50,cool. befides fome debts, with the particulars of which the company were as yet unacquainted. But Fort St. George was in a different fituation, having a revenue of one million fteiling, which was more than their civil and military eftablishments amounted to, and nothing remained to burden the Company with regard to them but their arrears, which was but a trifle of about 400.000l. The revenue of Bengal he eftimated at 4,600,000l. excluding the cuftoms, opium, and flt, and their expenditure, he computed a 4,300,000l. which after deducting the bond debt of Bombay would leave a furplus of 230,000l. and by the other favings, the Company would be enabled

to make by the improvements in the re venue, the reduction of the army, &c. ht could not hesitate to fay there would be a furplus of 1,300,000l. To produce this, however, he looked to a general and uninterrupted peace :-it was on that alone the profperity of India depended; but fhould war again take place, he trembled with the most alarming apprehenfions, for the worst of confequences.

Mr. Francis replied, that the Honourable Gentleman by no means answered his arguments, in his ftatements of their affairs, either at home or abroad.-The fame reflections were made, and the fame delufive hopes held out last year. This was a mode of reafoning, against which he protested in the beginning;-he did not want to hear what might happen, or what was expected; he withed only to be at iffue on the prefent and real state of affairs. Of this nothing had been said by the Hon. Gentleman, which could, in anv degree, difprove his arguments.

Mr. Baring contended that there were refources in Madras, and in Tanjore.That were the fubfidies paid, which the Company had a right to expect, the course of one year would prove their circumftances to be as favourable as the most fanguine statements had ever afferted them to be. There certainly appeared deficiencies in certain articles, but they were occafional ones, and fuch as were never likely to happen again He then went into a defence of the former reports, ftating their inaccuracy to proceed entirely from circumftances which the company could not be acquainted with at that time they were delivered.

Mr. Huffey did not know that any deficiences had now appeared, which were not likely to happen again For his part, from the knowledge he had of the EaftIndia affairs which he had for a long time confidered, there was nothing to induce him to entertain the fanguine hopes fome gentlemen feemed to d, nor to poffefs any great opinion of the accuracy of the accounts given in by the directors. At one of their meetings it appeared from fome papers made out, that they computed their deficiency at home and abroad at 1,200,000l. and their debt to the army at 2,200,000l. But when he went home and compared this with the account which he had in his own poffeffion, he found a difference of eight millions against the company. The produce of the late fales might have been very favourable; if fo, he hoped they would continue equally

good;

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