and with very good reason, because it could not be controverted, that the state or the finances of this country was an object which well deferved attention and inquiry; but very confiderable difference prevailed with regard to the manner on which this inquiry fhould be conducted, and the perfons to whom it fhould be intruffed. It was extraordiney enough to hear a committee of the Houfe of Commons objected to as improper perfons for inftituting and conducting fuch an inquiry, and above all, the reafons that were now alledged against fuch a proceeding, were the most novel, unprecedented and improper, that poffibly could be imagined. For in carrying them to the extent which the Right Hon Gentleman did this day, the refult and unavoidable confequence must be, that no committee of the House of Commons could ever be formed. If it was to be objected that gentlemen fhould not be intrufted with a butinefs in which the public credit and intereft, were fo much engaged, because they at any time held certain opinions, or fupported certain meafures, then would a precedent arife, fubverfive of every good principle in which our conftitution was founded. There was a time when no minifter would dare to hold fuch language to the Houfe of Commons, for there was a time when no minifter would ftand in their defiance. It was reserved for the statefmen of the present day, to offer such an unparallelled infult to the reprefentatives of the people. It was a new doctrine, that Members for having ufed that freedom of opinion, and freedom of speech, without which liberty, were but a name, fhould be prefcribed from executing thefe functions, for which they were called into parliament. In the poverty and dearth of argument, which led the Right HonGentleman to fly from inveftigation, how im otent and vain that defer which refted n allufions merely perfonal, or applying to measures that wer popular. It was not strange that his Right Hon. friend (Mr. Fox) unmoved by the public expofition of a fallacious calculation fhould not have heard with equal in difference the affairs of India, introduced in this debate. There was an H n. Gentleman (Mr Dundas) at the Minister's elbow to whom any imputation of having exaggerated the diftreffes in which the company were involved, would more properiv apply.Whatever was contained in the reports on that fubject, which by the bye, he believ VOL. IX. JULY, 1785.

ed to be very juft, was principally the work of that Hon Gentleman; and were his Right Hon. friend difpofed, in this inftance, to fhield himself from the shafts of his adverfaries, he had it in his power to do fo, by offering to their malignant aim, the body of their own offspring. Accuf tomed to it, from confiderable experience, he was not much aftonished to hear, in this inftance, affertions put in oppofition to facts, to truth, and to reality; but the time was now at hand, when these affertions fhould bring fhame on those who were hardy enough to make them. As far as regarded the finances, and the folvency of the Eaft-India Company, the Houfe would foon receive fome lights upon the fubject. Other circumftances muft afterwards appear; and though neither the report of the committee, nor any affertions of his, whatever might be his opinion, went fo far as to fay, the Company were bankrupts; yet nothing was more certain, than that their affairs were three years ago, in a very dangerous fituation; and nothing fince having occured to prevent the progrefs of the evil, it was reasonable to draw conclufions exceedingly unfavourable to them. Though circumftances may at times lead him to warmth and inconfiderate acclamations, from which this day he was not perhaps, totally exempt, and for which he hoped the Houfe would excufe him; he was now cool and ferious in pledging himself that thefe circumftances, to which perfonal and farcaftical references had fo frequently been made, would yet be proved, to the fatisfaction and conviction of the House. Taunts and perfonalities, often drew from men those exertions, which before flumbered in inactivity, and nothing fure could be more mortifying, than that men grown hoary in the acquifition of knowledge, and whofe labours were directed to the investigation of truth, should be oppofed by vague, inconfide rate, and idle affertons. He always held and would ftill continue to do fo, that no investigation was of greater cenfequence, than that into the affairs of the Eat-India Company; it was the last and most important part of our poffeffions; but this, or any fuch opinion, would not surely argue, that because that inquiry was neceffary, an inquiry was not alto neceffary elsewhere. If any argument could be drawn, it must be precifely the contrary He had only a few words more to add, and they were on the fcore of precedent. The Right Hon. Gentleman on the ruins of a very good

D

good precedent, was about to establish an egregiously bad one. A committee for the fame purpose, to which his Right Hon. friend's motion went, had already fat fome years back, of which an Hon. Gentleman was then Chairman, nearly related to the prefent minifter; but who was fince honoured with a feat in the Upper House (Mr. Thomas Pitt, now Lord Camelford.) The noble Lord, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not think it an improper interference with his duties, nor did he think any member difqualified from fitting on it, whatever might be the turn of his political opinions; for however, people may differ on measures, where fair and regular accounts were laid, there could be no great diverfity of opinion in calculating numbers. But on the mode of arguing laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman on this queftion, it was impoffible that any Committee fhould be made in the Houfe of Commons, exempt from that fpecies of objection, which he thought fufficient to difqualify them.

Mr. Sheridan moved that the order of the House in 1782, for appointing a Committee to inquire into the ftate of the revenue of the kingdom, and to report their obfervations thereon be read; which being done, he moved that the names of the Committee be alfo read. This was alfo done; and among the others there appeared the Hon. Wm. Pitt. Mr. Sheridan then faid, his reafon for making this motion was, to refresh the Right Hon. Gentleman's memory, from an apprehenfion that he might forget his being on that Committee, or that he made the report the fubject of a motion in the Houfe. After what fell from his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Burke) it was unneceffary for him to dwell much on the fupport which the prefent motion derived from precedent, or the folly and impropriety of the difqualifying arguments, on which an oppofition to it was maintained. But an obfervation made by the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Treafury Bench, that certain grounds of argument taken on the fubject of finance were now abandoned,-induced him to fay a few words on the occation. When he, on a former day, stated that no furplus could be reckoned on, or any faving made, tho' the arrears and deficiencies of former taxes were provided for, as well as the annuities on the fums lately funded he was juftified in doing fo, having heard the idea firft started by the Right Hon.

be

Gentleman him felf, a declaration whic gave him no fmall fatisfaction. Withou this the favings must be merely nominal and fallacious, as new taxes muft certainly be raised, to pay off the annuities on the new-funded fix millions.-The Rigm Hon. Gentleman, when he confidered as abfurd the opinion that more than one million of the finking fund fhold applied to paying off the national debt, and when he had recourfe to precedent for a juftification of that notion, fhould here reflect for a moment, that one million was confidered adequate to that purpose, when the total of the national debt did not amount, to one hundred millions. And on a parity of reafoning, it was nothing more than juft to allow even more than two millions of the finking fund to be now appropriated to that purpose, when the national debt so nearly approached three hundred millions. then went into divers calculations in the ratio's of the feveral questions, and contended that the statements of the Minifter, and the estimates given in were unfair and fallacious. In every calculation he obferved, the ftamp tax bore a very great proportion, amounting on an average to 400,000l. per quarter, which in the year would produce a fum of 1,600,000!. From this, and various other arguments, he contended that the public was misled by fallacious accounts, and that to afcertain the real ftate of facts, the motion for a Committee to inquire into them would have his fincere fupport,

He

He

Mr, Steele, by a variety of calculations endeavoured to controvert the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, who spoke laft, and the propriety of the motion. particularly dwelt on the produce of the ftampact, which though in one quarter it amounted to 400,000l. in another amounted to little more than 200,000l. fo that taking one quarter with another, and calculating for the entire year, the produce will be no more probably than 1,200,cool. He alfo contended, that it was exceedingly fair to take an eftimate of the whole year, from the quarter ending the 5th of April, and that the Houfe would do well to wait the event of this year's produce, and fee what furplus it would produce. The motion now offered, appeared to him exceedingly improper, and he made no doubt would feem equally fo to the Houfe.

After a fhort reply from Mr. Sheridan the question was put on Mr. Fox's motion, and negatived without a divifion.

Mr:

Mr. Fox then remarked, that as the Right Hon. Gentleman concurred in the propriety of inquiring into the ftate of our revenues, and as he thought it would be done better by large numbers, than in a private Committee, he hoped no oppofition would be made to the motions he was then going to offer. He then moved for a variety of papers necessary to direct an inquiry, which were feverally ordered to be laid before the House; after which, about half paft nine o'clock, they, adjourned to Monday.

Took into confideration the motion to withdraw the petition for the undue election for Anftruther, and leave was given,

Ordered the corn hill to be read a a fecond time on Thursday fe'nnight.

Ordered out a new writ for Cirencester, in the room of- Blackwell, deceafed.

Deferred the Committee of ways and means and the supply to Wednesday.

Read a Second time the Aylesbury Road Bill.

Received and read a petition from the Merchants of Stroud, in favour of Dudley Canal Bill. Ordered to lye on the table.

Received and read a Petition from the above Merchants, against the Stafford Canal Bill; alfo from Worcester against the faid bill. Ordered to lye on the table till the Bill is read a fecond time.

Received and read a petition from Paifley, against the two-penny Scots Bill. Ordered to lye on the table till the Bill is read a fecond time.

Paffed the Commiffioners of Land tax Bill.

Deferred the fecond Reading of the Stafford Canal Bill, from to-morrow, till to-morrow fe'enight.

This day the private business being over, the Houfe went into a committee on Irish affairs, Mr. Gilbert in the Chair, on the Staffordshire petition, no counfel appearing in behalf of the petitioners, Mr. Wedgwood was called in and examined; as foon as Mr. Wedgwood had withdrawn, Mr. Pitt arofe, and requested to be informed if there were any farther evidences ready to be offered, if not, he intended to move, that no more be heard after Wednesday next.

Mr. Fox did not fee the neceffity of fixing fo early a period for stopping the information of the Houfe on fo material a fubject, as nothing decifive could be done in the bufinefs before the recess, if during the Seffions.

Mr. Pitt faw no reason why the Houfe could not finally determine on the propo fitions before the holidays, as he meant to produce but few perfons for examina. tion; he should therefore, if no more week's notice of the day for taking the evidence appeared by Wednesday, give a fenfe of the Houfe on the Irish propofitions.

Mr. Stanhope afterwards rofe and moved, that the business relative to the Cricklade election be poftponed to this day fortnight, and that the Chairman of the Committee, do extract fuch parts of the evidence given before them, as may tend to criminate the returning officer.

Received and read a petition from the woollen manufacturers of Hants, against the Irish Propofitions. Referred to the committee on the Irish trade.

Ordered that there be laid before this Houfe, a copy of Mr. Haftings letter to the court of directors, dated the ft of October, 1784. Also a copy of observations, &c.

Received and read a petition from the debtors in the King's Bench, Marfhalfea, and New Goal, praying relief. Ordered feverally to lie on the table.

Read a first time, the bill for removing and rebuilding the City Compter.

Deferred the county election bill, and the bill to prevent bribery at elections to this day fe'nnight.

Deferred the call of the Houfe that food for to-morrow, to that day fe'ennight.

To proceed in the committee on the Irish trade to-morrow.

INSOLVENT BILL.

Mr. Alderman Sawbridge faid he expected the object of the motion he now intended to make, would have been taken up by perfons better able to carry it into effect than he was. He was in hopes

that the conduct of another Houfe would have fpared him a tafk, which, though he undertook with cheatfulness, he would be better pleased to fee in more proper hands. Many circumftances had concurred within thefe few years to produce difappointments and misfortunes in the affairs of people in bulinefs; of this, the number of unfortunate debtors with which the prifons of this country abounded, was a melancholy inftance. This cir cumftance not only injured the public by withholding the affiftance of fo inany perfons from contributing to the general in terefts, but involved their families in the deepeft diftrefs, and brought them as fo many burdens on the induftrious part of the community. He therefore hoped he fhould meet with no of pofition in moving for leave to bring in a bill for the relief of infolvent debtors, which was unanimoufly agreed to.

He

mending the prefent mode of reprefenta tion, where members are returned fa boroughs, fome entirely in the gift of the crown, or dependent on particular boards and departments in the ftate; others in the nomination of individuals, and numbers obtained by undue and corrupt prac tices. After having heard thefe doctrines, and confidered the favourable reception they obtained, and the fuccefs that follow. ed them, he could not but lament that neither the complexion of the times, nor the difpofition of perfons in power, were in the leaft aufpicious to his defign. confessed that species of reform which was lately proposed by a Right Hon. Gentleman, was not fuch as in his opinion was best to be adopted. To reduce the number of boroughs, and increafe the propor tion of county members would be a good part of a more comprehenfive plan, but would of itself be wholly inadequate to fo important and defirable a purpose. His propofal would be of quite a different nature. He wished to lay at once a foundation on which a more complete fuperftructure might be raised. It was unneceffary to dwell on the violence of that measure by which the duration of parlia The country had fufficiently expreffed ments was extended to the present term. their difapprobation of that conduct, as well as the prefent mode of their being reprefented. wishes, as well as his own opinion, he In compliance with their liament back to its original state, as a prewas defirous to bring the duration of parliminary to further improvement. That would cause the voice of the people to be attended to, in the Houfe of Commons, as their approbation would be more frefrom the Crown the opportunity of availIt would alfo take quently recurred to. ing tfelf of particular circumftances in the prejudices of the people, to get rid of clined, and obtain another more adapted a parliament to which it was not well into its wishes. This was a cafe which had already occurred, and might poffibly do fo again, unless fuch a measure as he then moved for leave to bring in a bill now propofed fhould take place. He for amending the state of reprefentation in parliament.

Mr. Martyn role, with a paper in his hand, containing notes of what he intended to fay, and by ftating, that he was well aware, from the peculiarly farcaftical dif pofition of fome Honourable Gentlemen, with whom he generally differed in opinion, it was no eafy matter for him to

deliver

deliver his fentiments fully on any fubject, without his expofing himself to a very confiderable degree of ridicule. Being of a timid difpofition, and not much abounding in words, he was always liable to be easily confufed; but he thought himself as well entitled to give his opinion on a queftion as thofe who could make longer and finer fpeeches. For, of perfons of the description last mentioned, he was ready to fay, that very great and fplendid talents were much abused by them, and for their honefty or integrity in general, he could fay but very little. He then faid, it was a remark of the noble Lord in the blue ribbon, who had fo diftinguished himself on many occafions, and as much in his oppofition to parliamentary reform, as on any other, that few petitions had been presented in favour of the measure. He faw him examine, with particular attention, the petition prefented from the county of Nottingham, and after confidering the contents of the petition, he faw him equally attentive to the names. He believed the noble Lord was not friendly to that petition, from the name which appeared firft in the lift of fubfcribers, being that of a perfon who had treated his Lordship in that manner which every well-wisher to his country ought to do. He then moved that the petition from the county of Nottingham be read, which being done, Mr. Martin, after a few comments on it, proceeded to read to the House extracts of opinions which he thought would weigh more with the Houfe than any thing he could fay on the fubject. From the tenor of these extracts and the few obfervations that accompanied them, we at last perceived that Mr. Martin was in favour of the motion.

Lord Surrey faid he was glad to hear the manlinefs and candour with which the Hon. Gentleman, who moved this question, brought charges against adminiftration, and he was as much furprized to find them, by their filence, plead guilty to them. He expressed himself a friend to the prefent motion, as well calculated to bring the conftitution of this country back to its proper tone, He alfo concurred with the Hon. Gentleman in thinking that it would prevent the prerogative of the Crown from exerting itfelf in moments of periodical delufion, in order to obtain a parliament more obfequious than it fhould be.

Sir Edward Aftley approved of the motion from the opinion he entertained of

Majority against the Reform 84

ABINGDON CANAL.

The order of the day being then read, for the fecond reading of the Abingdon Canal Bill.

Mr. Eden objected to it as a proceeding which was entirely informal, and contrary to the orders of the Houfe. He then moved for the orders on that subject to, be read; after which he argued that they had not been in any degree complied with. He alfo ftated that many of thofe perfons who were mentioned as friends and approvers of the measure were quite averse to it; not to mention a great many res ported to be very defirous of having this bill obtained who were totally neuter. For thefe reafons he moved that the further confideration of this bill be deferred to this day three months.

This motion was oppofed by Mr. Pyc, Mr. Loveden, and others; when after much conversation, the House divided. The numbers were,

For Mr. Eden's motion,
Against it,

Majority

GIBRALTER HEAD MONEY.

107

29

78

The Houfe then purfuant to the order of the day, went into a committee, Alderman Watfon in the chair, on the Bill for taking the Gibraltar head-money from the prefent commiffioners, and vefting it in the regimental agents. Mr. Erkine appeared as counfel for the Commiffioners, and requested that the preamble of the bill may be proved before he entered on the fubject. Major Montgomery was called in for that purpofe, and a question was afked him by M. Grant, to which Mr. E fkine objected. A bong converfa tion took place on the formality of this proceeding; and it appearing from vari ous obfervations, that the business may be accommodated without parlamentury m terference, which feemed to both fides

exceedingly