particularly as they affected the agricultural interest, a tax should be laid on this species of property, or that it should be sacrificed, in some shape or other, to the necessity of the times. He thought that those who had embarked their property at the call of government, who had embarked it subject to all circumstances and contingencies, and who had made very considerable sacrifices already, ought not to be treated in this way. He (Mr. Maberly) would not attempt to follow him through a series of accounts, part of them consisting of fiction, and part of truth; but he would state the way in which he wished the public accounts to be made up. He would in the first instance take the consolidated fund, and bring down the balance of that fund clearly. He would then take the supplies voted for the year, and the annual revenue, which comprised most of the assets (except some extraordinary items) appropriated to meet the great body of the expenditure of the country. Taking the annual duties voted, if the amount should exceed the sum required, the surplus should be carried over to the consolidated fund. He would then come to the excise duties, and if the actual collection of the revenue were placed to the account, they would arrive exactly at the amount of that branch of the revenue which went to form part of the assets of the year. He would next take the lottery, old stores, and sinking fund, and thus come at the whole of the assets available to the public service, which, contrasted with the expenditure, would leave a clear balance. He would call on the right honourable gentle

man to adopt this mode, which would give to the public what merchants called a balance sheet, instead of introducing an account, partly fictitious and partly real. Notwithstanding all that had been said by the right honourable gentleman, he believed the sinking fund last year was somewhere about 2,200,000l.; but through the whole of the accounts there was a great deal of confusion. It appeared to him that a sinkingfund was necessary for the support of public credit; and he thought it should always be of such a nature that circumstances should never make it doubtful whether the interest of the fundholder would be paid. It was well known that in 1792 Mr. Pitt took a comprehensive view of the finances of the country, and set apart a certain sum to form a sinking-fund. He went farther: he wished, as much as possible, to save the people from suffering, and he appropriated a sum in order to lessen taxation. If the same course were now adopted, it would essentially relieve the public. If, hereafter, of every million that was saved, one half was added to the sinking-fund, and the other half appropriated to the reduction of taxation, it would produce more happy effects than if the whole were thrown into the sinking-fund. And why? Because the people who were paying such immense taxes, would then become satisfied that every effort would be made to relieve them; and there would be no necessity for supporting a large standing army to keep them in order. When once they saw such a measure adopted, they would cease to be discontented with the government;

་

government; and sure he was that they were not discontented with the constitution.

Mr. Ricardo said, the chancellor of the exchequer always gave a most flattering account of the state of the country. Last session he had declared that the funds which would be applicable to the expenditure of the present year would be much greater than what he had now stated them to be. He had stated that the addition to the sinking-fund would have been 1,700,0001. instead of 950,0001., had it not been for the additional interest on exchequer bills. He (Mr. Ricardo) wished to know whether the interest of those exchequer bills had not been provided for in the preceding session? He thought a sum was voted for that purpose, because he took occasion, on the last budget, to remind the right honourable gentleman that he had made no provision whatever for the interest on the exchequer debt; and he stated in answer, that provision had already been made out of former votes. If that were the case, he must place this payment against certain debts which should be liquidated in the present year, and not against that which fairly belonged to the budget of former years. From the papers which were in the hands of members, it appeared that the account might be correctly stated thus:-By the annual accounts, the amount of the unfunded debt appeared to be 17,292,5441.

There were funded, during the last year 7,000,0001.

Exchequer bills, which, added to the former amount, gave a total of 24,292,5441.

There was a deficiency arising

on the consolidated fund, which the right honourable gentleman had entirely left out of the view which he had taken in the statement made by him to the committee. That deficiency amounted to 517,0001. during the present year, and this being added to the enormous deficiency which existed before, might be stated, in fact, at 8,990,000l. Here he could not help remarking that these accounts, from the way in which they were made up, did not give the committee that correct view of the state of the finances which it was desirable that it should be furnished with. If he wished to consult them for information, he could find no part from which he could clearly discover what the annual deficiency upon the consolidated fund really was. A paper having been moved for upon this subject by an honourable gentleman some time since, he was enabled to ascertain that on the year ending the 5th of January, 1821, that deficiency was 8,850,3271. And in the year ending 5th of January, 1820, 8,321,0001.

Taking the two amounts together, the difference between the sums was 429,3271.

Now this being the case, what was the reason that in the annual printed accounts which were delivered to the house, the amount of the deficiency upon the consolidated fund for the very same period, that is, from the 5th of January, 1820, to the 5th of January, 1821, was stated at 517,2321. instead of 429,3271.? Making a difference between those accounts and the return which he spoke of, of 87,9051. He did not mention this difference upon account of the magnitude of the

sum,

sum, but for the purpose of showing how little reliance could be placed on these public accounts, under their present shape. It certainly did appear to him that two accounts made up for the same period ought to yield the same results. But to return to the matter of those accounts. It seemed that during the last year we had contracted loans to the amount of 24,292,5441. To which must be added, for the deficiency upon the consolidated fund, as stated by the right honourable gentleman, 517,2321. Making together, 24,809,7761.

Against this amount they must put that part of the debt which had been paid off. It must be shown how much money had been devoted to that purpose; and then, whatever balance appeared, by so much had our debt increased or decreased.

We had a sinking-fund last year, of 17,510,0001.

The amount of treasury bills paid off, was 2,000,0001.

The difference between the amount of exchequer bills upon the 5th of January, 1820, and the 5th of January, 1821, was 5,934,9281.

So that we had devoted, in truth, to the payment of the national debt, whether funded or unfunded, during the current year, the sum of 25,444,9281.

And reckoning, as he did, the amount of the debt contracted to

be during the same period, 24,809,7761. The difference would be 635,1521.

The actual amount, therefore, of difference, between the debt on the 5th of January, 1820, and the debt on the 5th of January, 1821, did appear to be no more than

635,1521., although the right honourable gentleman by some other species of calculation made it amount to 950,0001. The house was told by the right honourable gentleman that there would be a sinking-fund next year, of 4,000,000l. Now, assuming the revenue for the current year to be as stated by the right honourable gentleman, and supposing that there should be such a sinkingfund, it was to be remembered that the right honourable gentleman had included in his calculation a sum of 500,0001. which he said he was to receive from France, and which was applicable towards the payment of the national debt during the present year. But if this 500,000l. was so applicable during the present year, it would not be (it was evident) in the next, or any future year. He (Mr. Ricardo) wished to know what funds could be made of general and permanent application in this way; and therefore it was of little avail to bring forward such a sum as this in such a statement. He took it that the sinking-fund would really amount to 2,809,0001. And the sinking-fund on exchequer bills, to 290,0001. Making the sinking-fund 3,099,0001. instead of 4,000,0001. as estimated by the chancellor of the exchequer. He certainly wished, however, that the event might turn out according to the statement of the right honourable gentlemen. But he did not think that the house or the country had much reason to congratulate themselves, when it appeared, that all which the right honourable gentleman had to tell them was, that the revenue in future years would be the same as confessed in this. He (Mr.

Ricardo)

Ricardo) confessed that he was one of those who really thought a sinking fund very useless; he did not mean to say that he was not favourable to such a fund, in the abstract; upon the principle of the thing there could be hardly any doubt; but really, after the experience which they had had, he did not hope to see that principle acted upon. He did not hope that it would ever be made applicable to the reduction of the national debt. Those who thought it would be, had much more confidence in his majesty's ministers, and in the house itself, than he had. Under all circumstances he was prepared, to say that whenever a motion should be made for the repeal of any tax that was within the actual amount of the sinking fund, he would for one support such repeal. He knew it would be objected that the revenue would sometimes fall short in particular branches, which would make it difficult to supply the deficiency. If so, let government impose new taxes to raise the full sums necessary for the state; but he would never consent to this sort of misapplication of a fund created for the specific purpose of liquidating the debt of the country. But this sum had been appropriated and fresh taxes imposed likewise. The people consented to fresh taxes on that occasion, in the hope that they should the more speedily experience some relief; and but for this reasonable expectation parliament too would never have been induced to impose them. Unfortunately the people of England were at this moment much more in debt than they would have been if there had been no sinking fund

in existence.

He should offer but a word or two relative to savings banks. He highly approved of them; but a plan had been suggested by a gentleman in the country, to which he thought the house would do well to pay some attention. The name of this gentleman, he believed, was Woodrow, or Woodrooff, and his plan was one by which a life annuity income might be obtained in these banks. The plan was, that persons at an early age might be willing to make a trifling sacrifice, which, by the operation of compound interest, would in the course, say of thirty or forty years, increase to a large sum. At the birth of a child, a father might be disposed to put by a small sum of money, for the purpose of procuring for the child an annuity hereafter; a plan of this kind would be productive of great benefits. The honourable gentleman then adverted to what had fallen from the chancellor of the exchequer, relative to the different effect of paying a debt to the bank of England, and a debt in any other quarter. In the former case it was said that the notes did not come into public circulation; but it was the amount only of circulation which it was material to look at; and it made little difference to the public from whence it

came.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer in explanation, said that the honourable member for Abingdon (Mr. Maberly) had termed many of his statements fictitious. Now, he should be glad to have them pointed out, and he would endeavour to show him that they were perfectly consonant with the returns before the house.

Mr.

Mr. Hume held in his hand a paper, showing that in Scotland they had increased in the following proportion :

In 1805, 1806, and 1807, they were from 4 to 4 per cent. In 1817 they were 7 per cent.

In 1818

In 1820 In 1821

7 per cent. 8 per cent. 8 per cent. which showed that in a few years the charge was nearly doubled. To this subject he thought great attention was due; for he was satisfied that, by strict attention to economy in this branch of our expenditure, a saving of 140,0001. might be made to the country. When the committee considered the immense sum of 18 millions, which the country was now called upon to pay, and that this sum was nearly equal to 24 millions in the former state of the currency, he thought there did not exist such grounds of congratulation as the right honourable gentleman seemed to imagine. The honourable member next alluded to the debt due to the East India Company, and condemned the system of letting it run on. He had before, in another place, expressed his opinion to the directors, that if they suffered the government to continue in their debt, it would at last be said that nothing was due to them; and this they had now begun to find was the case. To this circumstance it was owing that there were no detailed accounts of the expences incurred for the detention of Buonaparte at St. Helena, which had (as we understood) already cost the country two millions. He hoped, however, that what had that night fallen from the chancellor of the exchequer would be the means of producing

some explanation on this subject.

Mr. Ellice said he could not avoid taking this opportunity of stating what he had before so often expressed-that it was a very absurd and unnecessary expenditure to go through the farce of borrowing a certain sum from the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, or in other words, taking away part of the sinking fund, when the same object might be answered by cancelling so much of the debt. The only object he could see in it, was that of rendering accounts that might be simplified more complicated. He merely mentioned this at present, but it was his intention to bring the subject under consideration in the next session of parliament. As to the flourishing state of the revenue, he admitted that the revenue had exceeded his expectations, and he only regretted that a proper reduction of our expenditure had not taken place, which would have afforded a no less pleasing subject of congratulation.

The first resolution was now put and agreed to.

On the second resolution being proposed,

Mr. Hume said that he perceived

among the ways and means, a sum of 165,0001. from the sale of old stores, which he presumed were naval stores. Now he wished to know why the same mode was not adopted with respect to the ordnance stores.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer made one or two observations in reply.

Mr. Ellice said he saw credit taken only for 165,0001. for produce of lottery. He wished to know whether it had produced no more.

The