For the troops in Ireland, L.749,937: For the pay, &c. of staff-officers, L. 118,021: For the pay of general and staff officers for Ireland, L.34,784: Charge of medicines and surgical materials, hospital contingencies, &c. for Great Britain, L. 29,035: For the Royal Military College, L. 25,173: Pay of general officers, L. 175,641: Garrisons at home and abroad, for Great Britain, L. 27,380: for Ireland, L. 6,178: For retired officers in Great Britain and Ireland, L. 127,437: For half-pay and military allowances to reduced officers on the establishment of the two countries, L. 770,161: For half-pay and reduced allowances to officers of disbanded foreign corps, pensions to wound. ed foreign officers, &c., L. 129,750: For in-pensioners of Chelsea hospital, L. 58,531: For out-pensioners of the same, L.1,173,648: For the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea, L.36,482: Pensions to the widows of officers, &c., L.104,122: And for allowances on the compassionate list, L. 168,532. The several other heads of the army-supply were proposed and agreed to. On the motion of Lord Castle reagh, the report of the Committee of Supply was on the 10th of May brought up by Mr Goulburn; and the question having been put on the first resolution, Sir H. Parnell rose and said, that it was more particularly necessary to attend closely to the Army Estimates now offered to the house, because they were avowedly brought forward as the estimates for the peace establishment. He insisted that the Noble Lord (Palmerston) had made out no case to justify so large a force as 29,000 men for Great Britain, 20,000 for Ireland, and 30,000 for the colonies in making this proposal he had alike overlooked the expence which the country, in its pre sent condition, was able to bear, and what was due to public liberty. This was of all others the season when the house was bound to institute the most minute investigation, and to be perfectly convinced before it voted the enormous sums demanded. The deficiency, on comparing the income and the expenditure was L. 14,000,000; but even adding the sinking fund of L. 16,000,000, the balance in favour of the income, in the fifth year of peace, was only L.1,900,000. At a time when universal peace reigned abroad, and there was no symptom of disturbance at home, it was most unreasonable that 29,000 men should be voted for Great Britain; but for Ireland the proportion was extravagant. If the Government was unpopular, if it did not pursue measures calculated to secure the good will of the inhabi. tants, it might be politic to keep up there an army of 20,000 men: but why had not some endeavours been used to render the civil power more effective? or, if a military force was necessary, why were not the 40,000 yeomanry in the country called upon to act? He wished to hear from the Noble Lord, or any of his colleagues, why a separate Secretary at War, with a high salary, a house in the Castle, and another in Phoenix Park; a distinct accountant's office, with all the charges of the establishment; and a board of general officers in Ireland, who, if they did not receive pay, inevitably occasioned expence, were kept for Ireland. Colonel Davies argued, that the establishment which Ministers proposed to keep up during peace was without a precedent in our history. His object in rising was to show, granting the necessity of the whole amount of troops, that a saving of L.120,000 per annum might still be effected. During the last autumn, it was reported in military circles that Ministers intended to reduce three regiments of cavalry and fifteen battalions of infantry; the effect of which would be, as he would prove, to save L. 30,000 in the cavalry, and L.90,000 in the infantry. Exclusive of the household troops, there were twenty five regiments of cavalry, of four of which, being in India and paid by the East India Company, he should say nothing: the rest were in Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, and amounted to a force of 7,820 men. The saving would be effected in this way: If the three regiments were reduced, and the men added to the rank and file of the rest, while the officers were put upon half-pay, the burden upon the nation would be diminished by the difference between the fullpay and the half-pay of the commissioned officers, while the non-commissioned officers would be wholly done away with. This would lessen the expence L. 30,000, while, in truth, the effective force would be increased by the number of officers' servants that would be relieved from their employment, and whose services would be rendered generally a vailable. The same arguments and principles applied to the infantry. Besides seven battalions of Guards, there were ninety-nine battalions of the line. Of these, fifteen were in India, and might therefore be excluded from the question; but there remained eighty-four battalions for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, or 54,600 rank and file. If fifteen of these battalions were reduced, as had been reported, the men might be drafted into the different battalions remaining, while a saving of pay, allowances, &c. to colonels, captains, and inferior officers, would be effected to the amount of L. 90,000. By this plan also about 600 servants would be added to the effective force of the army. In the whole, therefore, the people might be less severely taxed to the extent of L.120,000, even supposing that it was fit to keep up the number of rank and file Ministers were anxious to preserve. It might be said in answer, that there would not remain a sufficient number of officers to maintain the discipline of the troops; but would it be seriously argued, that a captain, a lieutenant, two cornets, a sergeantmajor, and three sergeants, were not enough in the cavalry to keep up the discipline of a few more rank and file added to the forty-six men they at present had under their orders? It might next be urged, that if the reduction he wished were effected, there would not be left an adequate foundation for the erection of à military superstructure in case of a sudden breaking out of war; but he really thought that this was anticipating an objection so futile, that it would not be used on the other side. Comparing the peace establishment of 1787, five years after the close of the American war, with the present estimates, the disproportion was striking: At that time there were only six regiments of cavalry, and sixty-three and a half battalions of infantry, amounting to 35,818 men, and the expence was calculated at no more than L.1,039,800. He thought that establishment altogether reflected the highest credit upon the illustrious person who projected it. He concluded by moving as an amendment, that the sum of L. 1,138,766, 11s. 2d. be granted to his Majesty in lieu of the sum of L.2,258,766: 11:2 in the original estimate. The Speaker having put the question, Lord Palmerston observed, that he hoped the house would give credit to his Majesty's Ministers for their wish, on all occasions, to save talions or to fresh recruits. It might be said, that that was the case with the regiments in the West Indies; but what would be the consequence, he repeated, of such an arrangement in case of war? The result of keeping up too low an establishment would be equally disadvantageous; for, supposing the regiments to consist of 400 men each, and say that 600 shall be added in time of war, making their full complement 1,000 men, on the war breaking out they would be at a most enormous expence in filling them up. The honourable gentleman had said, that the saving to be effected by reducing 3 regiments of cavalry and 5 battalions of infantry would amount to L.120,000. This appeared to be greatly exaggerated. He (Lord Palmerston) had understood the honourable gentleman on a former occasion to say 5 regiments of cavalry; and therefore the advantage, in the calculation which he (Lord Palmerston) had made on the subject, was all on the honourable gentleman's side. Now he believed it would be found, that even upon the honourable gentleman's own arrangement, the saving would not exceed L. 31,958. The total saving indeed, upon that plan, would be L. 175,000. But against this last amount were to be placed the unattached pay of general officers, the half-pay of the reduced officers, military allowances, allowances for clothing of officers and men, and also for out-pensioners, to sergeants, staff sergeants, private soldiers, and other men belonging to the different regiments, besides L. 41,958 for remaining miscellaneous services, making altogether a total of L. 143,042, which would reduce the saving to L. 31,958. They would have, besides, to disband their regiments for the purpose of reducing them, and be at the additional every expence which it was possible to spare. But in so doing, however anxious the house might be to exert the most rigid economy, it should consider whether it was better at once to adopt an ascertained and permanent establishment, of which the expenses were submitted to them; or by rejecting that, and endeavouring to reduce it to an impracticable scale, to find itself hereafter involved only in greater expences, and in greater difficulties. The honourable gentleman opposite, he thought, had greatly over-rated the saving which the adoption even of his own plan could effect. In fixing the peaceestablishment of the country, the house would see that it was not only necessary to consider what was a fair and reasonable force, but that it was requisite to give to our army, in the event of a war, should that ever unfortunately happen, the means of its augmentation with promptness, vigour, and efficacy. In this view he really thought the proposed establishment combined as many advantages as it was possible to incorporate into any one. It was evident that, whatever was the establishment proposed, there would be many to dispute its eligibility-many who would contest even the honourable gentleman's arrangement. Certainly, he (Lord Palmerston) believed, that in some cases it would be less expensive to have higher establishments than he proposed; but great inconvenience would inevitably result from that system, in the event of a war. Supposing the establishment of the regiments was fixed at 800 men, in what manner would they be able on the breaking out of hostilities to augment them? Why, they might propose to add 200 men to each, and so form an unmanageable, unwieldy establishment; and to effect that, they must either resort to new bat expence of raising fresh men, in case of war, to complete them; so that allowing the amount, after these additional deductions, to be L. 13,802, the utmost at which it could be estimated, it would not be worth while accomplishing. Now, taking the establishment proposed at 28 regiments of cavalry, and 18 battalions of infantry, by the addition in the cavalry of only one captain, 1 sergeant, and 1 private; and in the infantry, of 1 lieutenant, 2 sergeants, and 1 corporal, to each company; they could at any time raise the cavalry to 5,880, and the infantry to 26,705, or 32,585 additional men; by which means, on any emergency, they might have their regiments almost as effective as at any period during the war. The expence of recruiting would be almost a trifle; but the difference of expence between keeping up this establishment, and raising new regiments, would not be less than L. 303,000 per annum. He trusted, therefore, that the house would not agree to the honourable gentleman's motion, seeing that the proposed establishment combined all the advantages of efficacy with the most guarded economy, both as to present and future arrangements; and that it afforded the means, whenever it might become necessary, to raise an army, of doing so with in finitely more vigour, and economy too, than a higher establishment could offer. The honourable gentleman had stated that our whole peace establishment in 1787 (including Ireland) cost us only L. 1,039,800, which he had appeared to consider sufficient at the present time; whereas his own estimate, exclusive of Ireland, was upwards of L. 2,000,000. Now, when it was considered that the present establishment included not only Ireland, but the whole force necessary for our additional colonies in the East and West Indies, Ceylon, and the Mauritius, he (Lord Palmerston) put it to the house, whether it was higher than might be expected. Mr J. P. Grant conceived that the arguments of the Noble Lord, however well they might apply to a very low establishment, were not at all relevant to the one in question. They could only apply to such a one as that settled by Mr Pitt, in 1792. That suggested by his honourable and gallant friend was 25 regiments of cavalry, and 91 battalions of infantry. Now, when he heard the Noble Lord propose as the permanent peace establishment of the country 18 battalions of infantry, (which 18 were to be more numerous than the 91,) he really could not see why the Noble Lord's reasoning was to be made equally applicable to high as to low establishments. There were gentlemen who heard him now, he believed, who were upon the Committee of Finance of 1792, and voted for that establishment: if any such now heard him, he called upon them to come forward and state upon what grounds they could give so inconsistent a vote as should support the one at present proposed. The establishment in 1792 was 11,000 men in all, while 30,000 and upwards were now proposed for Great Britain alone. Mr Goulburn believed that these establishments had been very nearly the same in principle for a great number of consecutive years. All the points alluded to by the honourable gentleman had been fully explained and discussed by his noble friend on introducing the estimates, and he thought it too much for the house to be called on to acquiesce in the views of the honourable member, who had not thought proper to go into any details, nor inquire into the necessity of any one branch of the service. The peace establishment of the year 1792 had been represented as the true standard, and he fully admitted that reference should he had to it, whenever a material change of circumstances, or the increased number of our foreign possessions, did not make such a comparison altogether inapplicable. In forming a fair judgment on this subject, it was essential to revert to the policy which we found it expedient to adopt at the commencement of the last war, for the purpose of suddenly raising a force which should be equal to our defence at home, whilst it was also disposeable for foreign operations. The honourable and learned member had not controverted the propriety of any particular estimate; and in the absence therefore of every thing but general assertion, he could only renew the general argument founded on the political changes which had taken place since the year 1792, and which changes had been amply investigated on former occasions by both sides of the house. The amendment having been put and negatived, the second resolution was then read, containing a vote of L. 749,987:8:10 for the maintenance of the land forces in Ireland, which after a few words from Colonel Davies and Lord Palmerston was agreed to; and it was moved, that a sum not exceeding L.181,021:1: 3 be granted to his Majesty for the support of the staff, exclusive of India. Before this vote should pass, Mr Hume thought it necessary to recall to the recollection of the house, the recommendation of a Committee, in the year 1817, with regard to the military establishment in some of our foreign possessions. The house had that day been reminded of the increased number of those possessions, as requiring an increased expenditure; but such a reason would entirely fail, if, as he had been informed, their revenues amounted to nearly a million and a half; as he understood the revenues of Ceylon were about L. 640,000, those of the Cape of Good Hope L. 229,000, those of the Mauritius L. 206,000, of Malta L. 114,000, of the Ionian Islands L. 120,000. It was the opinion of the Committee, that these revenues ought to be made applicable to the support of their civil and military charges. It was the duty of the house to ascertain this fact, and to render such revenues, if they should be found to exist, available for the public service. He apprehended that the house had always been accustomed to regard with jealousy the application of any revenues by the Ministers of the Crown, without the cognisance of parliament. He had himself certainly seen no returns to the house, as to the appropriation of such revenues, out of which Ministers might therefore bestow pensions, or otherwise employ for their own purposes. Before the house voted this sum for the staff, they ought to know what had already become of the L. 1,200,000 a-year which had been already derived from these sources. If, therefore, there should be no disposition to postpone this vote, he would move, as an amendment, that instead of L.118,000 the sum should be L. 96,000; and should sit down with re-stating his opinion, that this subject ought long since to have been brought under public consideration. Mr Goulburn remarked, that the observations of the right honourable gentleman were not simply and exclusively connected with the vote under consideration, but applied to the principle upon which this country |