was evident that the expence must continue after the reduction had been made. In the course of the present year the half-pay officers and pensioners of Chelsea would merge in the account of these reductions, so that a saving of expence would be effected to meet the increase of half. pay officers arising from the reduction of the army of occupation. If they looked at the whole expence of this year's establishment, as compared with that of last year's, they would find that a reduction of L.763,000 had been effected. He would not at present enter into minute details, but should content himself with stating generally the variations which had arisen in the expenditure in the different classes. In the first class, comprising the charges for staff officers, medicines, &c. the decrease of expence this year, as compared with last, amounted to L.270,000, of which L.263,000 arose from the reduction of the land forces. The variations under the several divisions of this class were as follows: -In the recruiting department, there was a diminution of expence, amounting to L.2,149; for depôts of regiments on foreign service, there was a reduction of L. 1,904; in the estimate for regimental and other contingencies, there was a reduction of L. 7,888; on the charge for general officers, staff-officers, and officers of hospitals, there was an increase of L.2,236; in the secretary department, there was also an increase of L. 3,681, which had been taken this year to meet a temporary expence, but would not be permanent; and he must also mention, that of this increased expenditure, L.1,784 were on the Irish establishment; in the medical department there was a reduction of L. 8,675; and on the charge for volunteer corps, there was a reduction of L.1,872, which arose

entirely on the Irish establishment. All these taken together left a diminution of expence in that class amounting to L.270,000. On the se. cond class, which comprised the expences incurred by supporting the troops which were on service in India, it was unnecessary to make any observations, because these charges were defrayed by the East India Company. In the third class the variations were as follow:-On the Royal Military College there was a decrease of L.340: in the establishment of general officers, there was a small decrease of about L.1,000; in the charge of garrisons there was a trifling increase, owing to the garrisons in Scotland having been omitted in last year's estimates of allow. ances to officers of reduced garrisons: in the estimate for retired and unattached officers, there was a reduction of L.5,871; on the list of half-pay and allowances to reduced officers, there was an increase of L. 37,398; in the estimate of halfpay and reduced allowances to officers of disbanded foreign corps, pensions to foreign officers, and allowances to widows and children of deceased foreign officers, there was a decrease of L.6,635; in the estimate for Chelsea hospital, there was an increase of L.121,325, arising solely on the out pension list; on the Mi litary Asylum at Chelsea there was also an increase of L. 3,631; under the head of pensions paid to the widows of officers there was an increase of L.5,247: on the allowances granted on the compassionate list for wounds, &c. there was an increase of L.6,726; under the head of allowances for superannuation to persons belonging to public departments there was an increase of L. 2,965. He was anxious that the house should see the amount of the expence, and that they be convinced it was fairly

incurred. On comparing the permanent force now established with that of 1817, it appeared that there was a reduction of 41,298 men; and in the expence a diminution of L. 1,336,000. He added, that he would reserve any further remarks he had to make till the resolutions came to be discussed.

The first resolution, that the sum of L.2,258,776 be granted for the charges of the land forces of Great Britain, having been put, Colonel Davies thought a saving of L.127,000 might be effected by certain reductions both in the cavalry and infantry regiments, and could not help remarking the difference between the staff establishment in Ireland and in this country. In Scotland, Guernsey, and Jersey, there were only seven general officers, exclusive of the Commander-in-Chief; but in Ireland there were not fewer than ten. In the adjutant department, there were here only five, while in Ireland there were eleven; and in the quartermaster-general's department, while there were only six here, there were eleven in Ireland. He could not help remarking also the high charge for the Military College. He could not see the necessity of training so great a number for the army, especially while there were so many meritorious officers who had been in the service, and were now out of employ ment. He would not divide the committee at present on this resolution; but when the report should be brought up, he would certainly move, and take the sense of the house on the motion, that L.120,000 be deducted from the sum proposed, and he should then show the method by which he proposed to effect this reduction.

Mr Hume remarked, that the Noble Lord had omitted to state that the

expenditure of this year exceeded

that of the last by L. 84,000. The staff establishment was too large, and open to much animadversion, but he would pass it over. But the state of the Military College called imperiously for the attention of the committee. When our army had consisted of 350,000 men, or more, such an establishment was perhaps proper. In the present year there were 400 scholars; there were formerly many more. In the course of three years this establishment supplied 76 officers to the army: 20 by purchase, 56 without purchase. The establishment cost the public L.25,000, consequently each officer thus educated cost the country L.1,063 per annum. There was another part of the subject which seemed well worthy of attention: it was the manner in which a certain class of half-pay officers was created. After 1816, while Ministers were making every exertion to make those reductions which the general voice of the nation called for, 294 officers were put into the army without purchase. In course of three years, just so many officers were put on half-pay at 3s. per day. At the very time that those fresh men were put into the army, many hundreds of cornets and ensigns would be glad to be employed. The annuity of 3s. per day to 294 officers, that was an annuity of L. 16,000, or the princi pal sum of L. 320,000, of which L.16,000 was the annuity, had thus been wantonly and wastefully thrown away. There was another charge which he considered objectionable: it was that of the Royal Asylum, for which the sum of L.36,000 was sta ted in the estimates. He did not mean to submit any motion on the subject, but he could not repress objections which appeared to him so obvious and so strong.

Mr Bennet said, that the only question was, whether the establishment,

as now before them, was not too large. In 1819, in the time of profound peace, 29,353 men were kept up in Great Britain. There were also, it appeared, 20,560 men to be kept up in Ireland. What reason could be assigned for this, he knew not, unless it was that it had been agreed at the Congress of Vienna to assimilate our Government to the despotisms of the Continent, and to substitute military parade and military terror, for the people's love and the people's happiness. But there was one subject in particular to which he wished to advert, and to which, if no redress were previous ly given, he should take another op portunity of calling the attention of the house. The subject was, the distribution of that money which had been so liberally voted by that house to the surviving sufferers at Water loo. Whether the evil had arisen from the vague manner in which the order for distribution had been made, or whether the order had been misunderstood, the effect was, that many officers were forced into a share of the bounty who had had no part in the battle, while corps who had contributed as much to the victory as if they had been in the heart of the action, who in fact defended the flanks of the army, got nothing of the bounty. The medical gentle men, who had the care of persons of all nations, to the number of 10,000, as well as the officers on duty at Brussels, were cut off from all share of the prize money. By a singular caprice in the distribution, officers of a foreign corps, who had run a way when danger appeared, and who afterwards joined before the army reached Paris, were entitled to a share of the prize.

Sir A. Hope said, the Military College was an establishment wise in policy, and peculiarly calculated to

promote the interest and prosperity of the army and of the country at large, because the money was expended in the country and for the advantage of the country at large. He would not expatiate upon how much care ought to be bestowed up, on the education of commanding of ficers, and how well they ought to be instructed, who could contrive to preserve life while they commanded others in the destruction of it. There was charged the sum of L. 6604 for the staff of the Military College. Of six staff officers, three had been reduced and three retained: the go. vernor, lieutenant-governor, and inspector of establishments. This was a moderate and reasonable charge.

Lord Palmerston in reply contended, that it should be remembered, that although the question of expences was undoubtedly that of the greatest importance in considering the estimates submitted to the house, yet there were other matters to be also considered of very great importance. If the honourable gentleman opposite (Mr Hume) went back to the establishment of the army in 1792, the deduction to be drawn from thence would be the very reverse of the honourable gen. tleman's. It was then much higher, and he (Lord Palmerston) trusted the house would be of opinion, that the present establishment combined as many advantages as it was possi ble.

It was well known that very high establishments were exceedingly inconvenient; for if regiments, in time of peace, were to be kept up on as high an establishment as in time of war, the consequence was, on the breaking out of hostilities, that they must raise new regiments, which every body was aware was the most inconvenient and most expensive of all ways by which a military force could be raised. With respect

to the Military College, he would observe, that this was an establishment which it was of the highest consequence to keep up, as well in peace as in war time. Gentlemen must be informed of the very serious consequences which resulted on the break ing out of the last war, from the want of officers sufficiently conversant with those tactics and professional details that could only be acquired by experience, or by a long military education. Courage, it was certain, was not sufficient to command success; and even with British soldiers, whose bravery always had been, and always would be, unquestionable, it had been found that other requisites, which it was the object of the college to confer, were necessary. He did not think that, on a future occasion, there would prove to be more candidates ready to receive commissions than was a fair proportion. An honourable gentleman had very strongly pressed the case of the half pay officers upon the consideration of the house. He had not indeed gone the length of saying that all new or vacant commissions should be filled up from the halfpay list; but he did not appear to imagine that their services were sufficiently considered. It afforded him, however, great pleasure to state, that the illustrious person who had the disposal of those commissions always considered their claims with the utmost fairness and impartiality. From the year 1795 to the last year, taking the salaries of the whole number of officers on the military establishment at twelve years' purchase, a sum of no less than L. 2,678,000 had been saved to the country, by appointing half-pay officers to full pay. The house would see from this, that there was no want of a disposition, on the part of the Commander-in-Chief, to give at least

a fair proportion of commissions to half-pay officers; but it was obvious that it would not be proper to do so in all cases, nor to appoint them to the highest commissions; in both of which instances those gentlemen who had been on full pay and in active service would naturally expect their full pay to go on. As to the Military Asylum, if there was one of the estimates more likely to meet the approbation of the house than another, he should imagine it would be that, about which so much had been said. With respect to its internal administration, he would venture to say it was one of the very first in Europe. The objects of its protection were most of them the orphans of those who had fought and perished in their country's battles. As to the distribution of the Waterloo prize money, the honourable gentleman opposite (Mr Bennet) had complained that there had been an unfair exclusion of those in garrison at Brussels, who with the medical staff had been employed in taking care of the sick and wounded after the battle. Now, the gratuity in question was given in consideration, expressly, of the battle of Waterloo, and of the capture of Paris, the immediate result of it. The line drawn for the distribution of that prize money was, that it should be given to those concerned in the engagement, and in the capture of Paris and of the neighbouring towns of France. But, of course, being for those objects, those who were in garrison at the time, for instance at Ostend and Nieuport, were excluded from all participation, equally with those at Brussels. Nor was that exclusion confined to our various corps thus situated; but the same regulation was observed by the Belgian, Hanoverian, and he believed also by the Prussian regiments. The garri

son at Brussels, moreover, had nothing to do with the battle of Waterloo; and when the honourable gentleman talked of protecting the flanks of the army, he would find, on consulting the geographical position of the place, that they could produce no such effect. As to the exclusion of the medical staff, a body of men whose services never could be suffi⚫ ciently estimated or praised, and whose conduct on that as well as on every other occasion was most exemplary, yet, if they had been entitled to share, so would the garrison, and so would all the allied troops under the command of the Duke of Wellington, throughout the whole Netherlands' territory; nay, troops and officers at Deal, waiting at that very moment the means of embarkation for the scene of action, would have had as good a right. With respect to the amount of the ensuing year's establishment, which the honourable gentleman thought too large, he had some authorities in his favour which he presumed that honourable gentleman would think of some weight. It would be remembered, that last year, in the debate upon this subject, an honourable Baronet, whom he did not now see in his place, proposed a reduction of L. 10,000 Now, in point of fact, a reduction had taken place of L. 9,800 men, and he hoped that they would not quarrel with him for the odd L. 200. On that occasion, too, a Noble Lord opposite (Lord Althorp) proposed the reduction of only L. 5,000, so that those gentlemen the least disposed at any time to countenance an excessive military establishment proposed last year as a permanent reduction one that in amount was only 200 men less than that which had been effected.

men.

In reply to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, Lord Althorp mere

ly wished to state, that as to his having proposed, on a former occasion, the reduction of only 5,000 men, it might be recollected, that in the committee he (Lord Althorp) voted for the larger amount recommended, 10,000 men: but as the house would not agree to so large a reduction, he had voted for one of 5,000, on the principle that it was better than none at all.

Colonel Davies having observed, that sums of L. 29,100 for England, and L. 9,829 for other places, were charged for recruiting services, begged to know what became of the money paid by the men who were discharged for providing substitutes. Lord Palmerston explained, that the sums were carried to the credit of each regiment. The number of men so discharged in 1818 was 500 men; and the amount, L.10,000, was of course regularly credited. It was the old custom to make the men discharged provide substitutes; but this was found to be very inconvenient, and to introduce improper persons into the army. They were, therefore, by the new regulations to pay L. 20 instead; and when the expences of procuring, marching, and subsisting a recruit were considered, it would not appear too large.

Some farther conversation took place between Mr Bennet, Sir Robert Wilson, and Lord Palmerston, about the medical staff being excluded from sharing in the prize money; after which the resolutions for the different items of supply were successively put and agreed to. The principal votes were for the daily pay, allowances, &c. of commissioned officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, composing the forces of Great Britain, exclusive of India, Ireland, and the troops on foreign stations, L. 1,260,228: For the same to the troops abroad, L.998,548;