Mr. W. Pitt admitted the neceffity of Parliamentary interference in the fituation in which the affairs of the Eaft-India Company were involved; but could by no means admit that an object of fuch magnitude was to be hastily hurried over without calm and deliberate confideration. The chartered rights of British fubjects, confirmed by acts of the British legislature, were ferious things, and could not be violated but by a breach of the conftitution. The argument of neceffity was the common plea of tyranny, to which government had recourie on all occafions when it wanted to opprefs men, and bring them to fabmiflion. To reform the abufes of any government, was there, he said, a neceffity to annihilate the very exiftence of the conftitution of that government? By annihilating the conftitution of the Eaft-India Company, established on the moft facred bonds of civil government, you thake the fabric of the British conftitution to the Foundation-you at once destroy the diftinctions of property, and establish a defpotic power in a Limited government. If charters from the Crown, confirmed by acts of the fupreme legislature, are to be dealt out to-day, only to be refumed, new modelled, and fold again by the fervants of the Crown to-morrow, what greater acts of tyrannic power can be alledged against the fervants of the Company, to authorite the feverities with which they are now threatened? Not to mention the great increase of that undue influence of the Crown, which the right hon. gentleman lately appeared fo much in earneft to diminish, the meature is big with terror, it threatens danger to liberty, deftruction to commerce, and the moft alarming confequences to national faith and national credit. Governor Johnstone. He treated with his afual afperity the measures that had been pured by ministry to diftrefs and debilitate the Eat-India Company. He applauded however the humanity and juftice that contituted the bafis of the bill fo far as it refpected reftitution to the native princes of the country, and the eftablishment of the Zemindars and poligars in their farms at the old rents, and concluded with a laboured panegyric on Gov. Haltings. Ordered a call of the House on Tuesday De .cember 2. Mr. Fox then moved, that it be read a fecond time on the 26th in. which was carried. Mr. Wilberforce observed, that the right. hon. gentleman had little to apprehend from the dif eale, as a right hon. Secretary had bespoke fever phyfician, and eight apothecaries. 21] Lord J. Cavendish moved, that a Select Committee be appointed, by ballot, to enquire into the illicit trade carrying on in this kingdom, to the detriment of the revenue, and to report their opinion. In a fhort introductory speech he mentioned what had been done by other Committees; and he left it to the confideration of the Committee, whether rigorous measures were the beft calculated to produce the great end of checking that trade; for his part, he would not haitily refolve in the affirmative. Sir Grey Cooper feconded the motion. He faid, much information might be had by fuch Committee from the two great Boards of Cuftoms and Excife. By one of thofe Boards it had already been made to appear, that all along the eastern coast of England were employed, in the fmuggling trade, 128 veffels, from 8 to 28 gune; that, beludes thele, there were 150 of a smaller fize, which carried no guns. It appeared alfo, that on the western coast, when a smuggling cutter hove in tight, it was ufual for a body of men, fometimes to the number of 800, to come down and take charge of the cargo. Thefe men had fometimes 40 waggons in waiting, to convey-it up the country, from whence it was circulated, by fraudulent or foreign permits, to every part of the kingdom.-This practice Sir Grey hoped the Committee would be able to de:cat. The motion paffed unanimously. 24] Sir H. Fletcher prefented a petition from the proprietors of East-India stock," against the bill, now depending in parliament, for vefting the effects of the Company in commiffioners; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table. Sir T. Davenport moved, That the record of the conviction of Chriftopher Atkinton, Efq. be read a fecond time on Thursday evennight, (Dec. 4;) and that Mr. Atkinson do, on that day, attend in his place. 25.] The Houfe proceeded to ballot for Select Committee to enquire into the illicit trade of fmuggling, &c. when the following gentlemen were chofen : Henry Baker, Henry Beaufoy, Charles Brett, George Daubeny, George Dempfter, Efq; Right Hon. T. Dundas, Right Hon. William Eden, W. H. Hartley, Efq; William Huffey, Richard T rities now vested in the Directors and Proprietors of the Eaft-India Company, and in the General or other Courts of the fame, hall cease and determine. That the commiffioners to be named shall immediately poffefs themselves of all lands, houses, warehouses; of all books, records, charters; all fhips and veffels; goods, wares, and merchan dizes, money, fecurities for money, and all other effects whatever, belonging to the faid Compapy, and shall have and exercise all and fingular the powers which have been at any time heretofore exercited by the faid Directors or Proprie tors, ec, &c. Jackfon Jackfon, Nathaniel Newnham, Abra. Rawlinfon, Hans Sloane, Efq; Lord "Sheffield, Henry Thornton, Efq; Sir H. Fletcher prefented a petition from the Directors of the East India Company, praying to be heard by counfel. The petition went particularly to two points: one, that the Directors held their places by virtue of a fpecial act of parliament, and could not be removed without fome crime or misdemeanour alledged and proved; the other, that the Company's finances had been reprefented in fo alarming a ftate as that bankruptcy muft enfue; which was by no means the cafe; for, with moderate affiftance from government, their affairs might be put on as good a footing as ever. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Fox did not, he faid, ftate that the Company was bankrupt, and owed eight millions more than it had effects to pay, but that it owed eight millions, and had no funds for the immediate payment. Mr. W. Pitt owned, that he was one of those who understood the right hon. Secretary in the first fenfe, but was glad to hear the fact difavowed; and now, as the bankruptcy had been made the pretence for robbing the Proprietors of their chartered rights, he hoped that gentlemen would not adopt the molt violent and unjust meafures, when the very ground on which thofe measures had been flated to be neceffary, had been abandoned. He was credibly informed that the affairs of the Company were far from being in fuch a ftate as to warrant to pointed an affertion in the face of parliament, but that, with the affiftance of fome falutary regulations, they might be made to flourish again as much as ever. Mr. Fox obferved, that this was not the time for debate, but, if he was inclined to enter into argument, the right hon. gentleman had given him a fair opportunity; for before any mealune was propofed, the language was, No palliative, no half meatures, give us a fyftem that will embrace every part of the government of India; but now, when fuch a comprehenfive fyitem is brought before parliament, the tone is changed, and the mighty plan is foftened down to the more calm and moderate propofition of fome falatary regulations. Mr. Burke faid, the right hon. gentleman who had fo roundly afferted that the affairs of the Company were in fo promifing a way that fome falutary measures would effectually reitore them, fhould hold himself pledged to prove the Company's affairs in no danger of being any more brought into diftrefs, fo as to make the interpo fition of parliament neceflary.—Violent measures, unjust measures, falutary measures, were big words. Measures contrary to the fpirit of all law, were founding words, and he could not tell what effect they might have upon children; he was fure they could not frighten men. Mr. T. Pitt obferved, that his right hon. friend had, on a former occasion, called for a well-digefted plan for the government of India; but it did not follow from this, that he should approve a fyftem big with violence, injuftice, and The moft rigorous oppreffion. He had not gladged himself to prove the fallacy of the right hon. gentleman's statement, but that the East India Company would prove it, by evidence, at the bar of the House. The motion was put and carried. 26] Mr. Fox brought in his fecond bill, intitled, A Bill for the better regulation of the affairs" of the East India Company. The Speaker read the breviate, and Sir Ed. Alley rofe to warn the Houfe to preceed with caution. If a measure fhould be haftily adopted, that would put Minifters in poffeffion of an extent of patronage, immenfe in every sense of the word, gentlemen might then find it neceffary again to vote, "That the influence of the Crown has increafed, is increa!ing, and ought to be diminished.” He was ready to allow that the Company's affairs wanted fome regulation; that a company of merchants were not the proper legiflators to gorn great territorial dominions; but still he thought parliament fhould be upon its guard, left the meatures propofed to remedy the evil fhould prove ruinous to the liberties of this country. Mr. Fox remarked that the hon. Baronet's objection went against the other bill; and when that bill came under confideration, he would endeavour to remove them. As to the prefent bill, its principle was clearly unobjectionable on the core of influence, for it militated against it. He prefumed therefore, that there would be no objection to fending the bill to the committee. An order was then made, that the bill be printed, and read a fecond time on the Tuesday following. 27.] Mr. Fox moved for various applications from the Directors of the East-India Company to the Lords of the Treatury, relative to the ftate of their finances. Lord Mahon objected, as the Houfe could have no time to confider them. Other objecti. ons were made; but the papers, being ready prepared, were laid upon the table. Lord Mahon defired gentlemen to understand, that the right hon. Secretary stood pledged to prove errors, in the account laid before the Houfe, to the amount of 12 millions. 3 Mr. Fox faid, he stood pledged to the Houfe for no fuch thing. He stood pledged to ftate exceptions to the Company's account to that amount, but would not fay that thofe exceptions would carry conviction to other men's minds, though they did to his. Lord North rofe to acquaint the House, that when the Parliament thought proper to repeal the act 6 Geo. I. and, confequently, to acknowledge the independence of Ireland, it was natural to foresee that some further regulations would be neceffary. The Poft-Office of Ireland, for inftance, had hitherto been annexed to that of England; but now it became necessary to be entirely feparated from it, and a mode must be adopted to fettle the poftage of letters between the two kingdoms. The mode he had to propose was, that each kingdom should profit in proportion to the labour performed; and, as England was in poffeffion of packet-boats for the conveyance of letters from one kingdom to the other, fome compenfation, he thought, fhould be made to Ireland, if Ireland fhould forego the advantage advantage of having packet-boats of her own. The motion he had to make went for leave to bring in a bill to enable the Poft-masters in England to cede to the Poft-matters in Irelind the buildings, &c. of the Poft-Office at Dublin. And as Ireland, for the future, as far as the postage of letters is concerned, muit be looked upon as a foreign country, the franking letters, from one to the other, could be no longer admitted. Even news-papers mult not be fuffered to pass free; but to facilitate their circulation, a penny, or fome fuch trifle, might be impofed, and the letters of certain departments of state only to be exerapt from poftage. These were the ideas on which he meant to form his bill. Not the leaft objection was made, and leave was given to bring in his bill. Mr. Fox moved the fecond reading of his bill for velting the effects, &c. of the Eaft India Company in commiffioners. The motion was agreed to; the bill was read, as were likewife the petitions from the Courts of Proprietors and Directors, and from the City of London, against the bill. And, in compliance with the prayer of the two former petitions, counsel was heard against it. And as foon as the counfel were withdrawn, Sir James Lowther stood up just to obferve that before the bill fhould be read, or gentlemen proceed to debate upon it, every paper now delivered to the bar fhould be read; for as the bankruptcy of the Company was the pretence for bringing in the bill, that bankruptcy must be proved before the fecond reading of the bill was permitted. This, Sir James faid, was all he had to remark at prefent, and the Rt. Hon. Secretary might now rife, and make his defence for having introduced a bill that had for its object the violation of the most facred rights of Englishmen. Mr. Fox readily allowed that every minifter, who fhould venture to bring a great measure before Parliament, should hold himself obliged to defend his meafure, and, by defending his meafure, defend himself, in that fenfe, he was ready to enter upon his defence. But he was attonished, he said, to find himself attacked upon a new ground, a ground where, he was forry to fay, he felt himself most strong, because his ftrength was founded on the weakness of the Company. He believed, he faid, gentlemen would find no great reafon to lament, that the account the Hon. Baronet alluded to had not been read, as he thould, in the courfe of his ípeech, have occafion to touch upon most of the articles. In the account he had found many things inferted which ought to have been omitted, and many omitted which ought to have been in ferted. He reduced the 4,200,000l. lent to Government to 2,520,000l. the prefent price of 3 per cents. of which the money lent makes a part. He excepted against the article for French prifonerers, 260,6871. as not to be relied upon for the immediate payment of the Company's debts, The Manilla expedition, and hofpital charges, 161,3241. for the fame reafon. The Company's bond, 280,5751. he excepted against. Goods fold, and not delivered, 553,2581. becaufe the money could not be received to fupply the prefent deniand. Merchandife exported to India, 1,278,0911 he reduced to 600,000l, for military ftores to be expended by the Company for their own protection. He excepted to 364,5151. Rated as cargoe fent from Bengal to other Prefidencies, in military stores, on the fame ground. He ridiculed the article for filver, 1090l. and compared it to the curious bill in Shakelpeare, where the hoft charges a monstrous fum for the luxuries, and clofes the account with one penny for the fubftantial article of bread. He excepted against 172,334). advanced to the owners for freight, as the money due for that article was not placed on the oppofite fide. He deducted 1,800,000l. from the amount of the fuppofed produce of their fhips expected in England for duties, freight, demurrage, and incidental charges, He excepted against the fum charged for ships employed at home, 12,000l. unless the Company were to be real bankrupts, and the ships were put up to auction. He excepted to the value of their houses and warehouses 253,616). on the fame ground. He execrated the debt due from Afoph ul Dowla,,789,8281. and hoped to God it never would be paid. Another debt from the Rajah of Benares, 130,500l. exclufive of 60,1861. for interest, was never to be recovered but by oppreffion. 4.992,012, ftated to be due from the Nabob of Arcot, was in the fame predicament. As was likewife 158,250l. due from the Rajah of Tanjore; and 993,8041. ftated to be due from the renters of fundry diftricts of lands; all these latter fums, amounting together to 2,822,310). Mr. Fox objected to as unfit to be inferted in an account of ways and means to answer the Company's preffing demands. Viewed in this light, he fail, there were more than twelve millions charged in the account that could afford no relief to the embarralled ftate of the Company's affairs. He therefore fubmitted it to the candour of the Houfe, if the interpofition of Parliament were not necelary to reicue the Company from im"But could not this be done pending ruin? without a violation of charter?" The disfranchifements of electors, erecting fupreme courts, introducing new law, which neceffity made neceffary, were no let's violations of the charter. "But neceffity is the tyrant's plea ;" and so it "But the influence of is of the innocent man. the crown will be increafed." So will the refponfibility of Minifters, in the fame proportion. "But why not give the fame power to the Di rectors as is now proposed to be given to Commiffioners? They have fent proper orders; it is their fervants that have disobeyed them?" For that very reafon they ought not to be trufted; for no government is lefs fit for the management of public affairs than that which was fo weak as not to be able to enforce obedience from its fervants. There was a radical defect in the Who would venture to government of India. affert that Lord Macartney was not at this hour fufpended, or had not fhared the fate of the late Lord U 4 Lord Pigot, for ferving the Company faithfully? Laft Tuesday's Gazette, was a melancholy proof of the warfare, in which the fervants of the Company are engaged, and of the dangerous dif pofition of the officers, where plunder and the infatiable thirft of riches made them quarrel and bring their own affairs to the brink of ruin. But India is restored to peace, and the Company will foon be enabled to rife fuperior to their loffes." Who would fay that peace was reltored? did gentlemen fee the confequence that rnight enfue, from an union between the Eng1th and the Mahrattas against Hyder Alley's fon? the fate of General Coote, whofe lofs he much lamented, made a renewal of the war an event not fo improbable as many might imagine. And it was in view to this event, that he preffed fo earnestly the paffing of the bill, which could not be delayed without danger to the ftate. He rifked much; he might lofe many friends. But, confcious as he was, that fome fuch measure was neceffary for the falvation of the ftate, he would proceed, regardless of the confequence. Mr. Pitt moved, to adjourn the debate, even till to-morrow; which motion, on being put, was rejected 229 to 109. (To be continued.) Hiftory of the Proceedings and Debates of the House of Commons of Ireland, the Firft Seffion, of the Fourth Parliament in the Reign of his prefent Majefty, Tuesday, October 14, 1783. (Continued from p. 103.) Thursday, November 20, 1783. IR Edward Newenham faid, that his with was to preserve the trade of Ireland; that he had on a former day, mentioned Ireland's not being included in the commercial treaty with the United States; that the Secretary, who had behaved with the greatest candour, was now in his place, and he requested to know from kim, whether he had heard any thing farther relative to Ireland's being named in that treaty. Mr. Pelham thanked the hon. Knight for is candid manner in agitating this bufinels, but assured him, that nothing material had, as yet, come to his knowledge relative to that trade. He faid, that he was a friend to the trade of Ireland. -- Sir Edward Newenham obferved, that he never made an affertion in that Houfe, which was not grounded on indifputable evidence; that he believed the Secretary's intentions wese friendly to the trade of Ireland, but infifted that Ireland had a right to fupport her own trade against English factors and jobbers; therefore he would move the Houfe on a future day, for an addrefs to his Majelty to enter into a treaty with the United States of America, for the kingdom of Ireland. Sir Edward then stated feveral inttan mes of diftrefs experienced by Irish fubjects on the Continent for want of confuls on minifters on the part of Ireland, and which, he faid, he would thew parliament the neceffity of. Read the bill of fupply-Ordered to be read a fecond time to-morrow. 21] The Houfe in a committee, Mr. Fofter in the chair. Read the first money bill a fecond time. Mr. Fofter reported, and the third reading was appointed for to-morrow. Houfe in a committee,-Mr. Fofter in the chair.. Went through the reading of the fecond money bill, paragraph by paragraph.-Agreed to the fame. Read alfo the fecond time, the bill of stamp duties.-Agreed to the fame. Mr. Fofter reported both bills. 22.] Mr. Fofter prefented the loan bill, which, he faid, had two principal objects; the first, to borrow the fum of 300,000l. and the fecond, for application of 100,000l. furplus of the ap propriated duties.-The bill propofed borrowing the money by exchequer bills, by iffuing debentures, and by one or more lotteries, and applying the furplus of the appropriated duties, to the private purchase of debentures, by which expedient near 116,000l. might be got in, to the great relief of the nation. There are Mr. Molyneux.-Sir, when I bring forwardmy promised motion for an augmentation of the falary of his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant, give me leave to fay, that if I did not think that fuch an increase of salary as I fhall propose was abfolutely neceffary for the honour and dignity of the kingdom, I should not fo far deviate from my principles of economy, as to propose such an addition to the national expences. cafes where œconomy becomes penury: I have no attachment to the prefent Lord Lieutenant, but if 22 years ago the prefent ftipend was thought a just one, it furely cannot be fo at this time, when almost every neceffary of life is enhanced, and luxuries are fo increased; at the period I mentioned, the chief Governors were not conftant refidents as now, and the vast additional expence the annual feffions muft induce, urges the neceffity of increafing this ftipend. I hope, therefore, no falfe delicacy or affectation of economy from the other fide of the House will make gentlemen oppose the motion, which is, "That an humble addrefs be prefented to his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant, that he will pleafe to tranfmit to his Majefty the fense of this Houfe, that the prefent falary of the Lord Lieutenant of this kingdom is inadequate to the expence, and praying that his Majefly will be moft graciously pleased to raile the fame to 20,000l. a year." Mr. Daniel Toler feconded the motion, and after pointing out fome further motives from the circumftances of the nation in 1758, to the prefent time, faid he was not induced to adopt this measure by any hope of favour or emolument from the prefent Lord Lieutenant or any other, as he declared, that while he fat in the Houfe he would never feek or accept of any place. The Attorney General faid, that he had the honour of a communication with his Excellency on the fubject of the motion made by the hon. member, which it was his duty to ftate to the Houle, that the refult of that communication was a decided refolution, on the part of his Excellency, to refufe an augmentation of the falary annexed to his office, fo far as he thought himfel at liberty to deliver his own opinion, or exercife his own judgment on the fubject; that 1 this refolution had been formed by his Exceltency on this ground, that though he found the appointment, confidered in itself, to be inade-. quate to the fituation, he had no idea that the private fortune of any nobleman who fhould be Advanced to the office in which his Majesty had been pleased to place him, fhould not in fome measure contribute to the expence; but that circumftanced as he was, he would neither accept or refule without having a previous communication with his Majefty; and in order to that communication with his Majefty, the Attorney General moved, that the confideration of the subject should be postponed to Monday fortnight. Mr. Molyneux. When I made this motion, I ftood fingly in propofing it. My reafon for bringing forward an addrefs to his Majesty, for an augmentation to the falary of the Lord Lieutenant of 4000l. per ann, was in order to have the dignity of that important fation fupported, in a manner that would add credit and honour to a free nation. We are not now that country we formerly were; we are a free people, a new and a commercial people. The reprefentative of Majefty, in a free country, thould be maintained with a fplendor and dignity becoming fuch a ftation. It is for the purpote of fupporting the office in a proper manner, that I move for this addrefs-it is not for the man. I have no perfonal regards for the prefent nobleman, who fills the honourable office of Lord Lieutenant with fo much reputation, as could in the leaft induce me to make this motion; no perfonal allufion actuated my conduct; my motive is, that the office should be maintained with fuitable dignity. It has been fuggefted by a right hon. gentleman, that English noblemen may come over here to fill that station, who may be obliged (as has in fome inftances been the cafe) to appropriate part of their fortunes in fupport ing the place of Viceroy in Ireland. I diiclaim the idea of a nobleman of Great Britain being under the neceffity of fpending any part of his own fortune in fupporting the dignity of a Lord Lieutenant. I put the prefent Lord Lieutenant out of the question, I only look to the office itfelt. If there was any doubt of the propriety of this measure, the right hon. gentleman has obviated them; he acknowledges the inadequacy of the falary of the chief governor. I fhall oppole the motion to put off the confideration of this meafure. If it is neceffary to be done, let gentlemen join their fentiments with me, and let it be confidered now. Right hon. the Provolt.-I hope that there will be no divifion on this fubject. I remember, during the adminiftration of Lord Halifax, there was an addrefs pretented to his Majefty, to augment the falary of the Lord Lieutenant from 12,000l. to 16,000l. per year. On the motion for the address being made in this Houfe, it was refolved, that on a subject of this magnitude, the Lord Lieutenant fhould have time to confider of it. I am decidedly of opinion to give the chief Governor a fortnight's time to confider of this fubject, and to communicate it to ni Majefty. I hope we fhall meet the quel tion in a manner the importance of it deferves, and that we fail gratify the Lord Lieutenant, in complying with his request of poftponing this subject for a fortnight. Mr. Lodge Morres faid, that the exceeding handfome and difinterefted manner in which his Excellency had been pleased to exprefs himself through the right hon. gentleman, although it might not be a fufficient reafon with the hon. gentleman who confidered himself as moving a general refolution refpecting no particular adniniftration or Lord Lieutenant, yet certainly the communication through the Attorney General was fuch as fhould weigh with him in point of delicacy, not to embarrass a nobleman whole ideas were as enlarged as his fituation, and whose with was to acquaint his Majefty, before the Houfe came to any refolution upon the fubject refpecting his reprefentative in this kingdom; but that if the hon. gentleman thought proper, notwithstanding, to perfit in his motion, he could not deny his affent to a refolution, the juftnefs of which would meet unanimous approbation, if it had not been for the very great and fenfible delicacy of his Excellency. Sir Henry Cavendish.-The conduct of gentlemen on the other fide of the Houfe, refembles that of a young woman, who is afked to fix her wedding-day. She puts it off with a little coquetry, hoping by that means to have it a little fooner forced on her. Miniftry, in the fame manner, half refuse the favour intended to the Lord Lieutenant, or at leaft plead to put it off. I will not be the violent lover in the prefent cafe. I will take them at their words. I will allow the fortnight they defire; and this, the rather, as there has been no account of the Lord Lieutenant's expences laid before the House. The Attorney General.-As to the coquetry of which the right hon. Baronet has spoken, it is merely from his own feelings. If he were ia our fituation, he feels he should play the coquet te, and he therefore attributes his feelings to us: but his Excellency has given a decided opinion without refervation, that he will not bimfelf accept of any augmentation of his falary. As to his fucceffors ftanding the fubftitute of Majefty, he does not think himself competent to decide without his Majefty's commands. Sir Richard Mulgrave-The motion has a very questionable appearance, in coming from the hon. gentleman who makes it.-A few nights ago, he was a ftrenuous advocate for retrenchment in the military eltablishment, contrary to the wishes of this Houfe, as that establishment was fupported by a large and dignified majority of it; befides, it was a debt of gratitude due from this nation to England. He faid, he would analife the two motions, in order to shew the hon. gentleman's confiftency; for consistency would give weight to his arguments. He urged economy in the military establishment very much, contrary to the wishes of the Houle, and now he is guilty of wanton prodigality in encreafing the expence of the civil cftablishment: he faid, wanton prodigality, because the motion came merely from himfelt, and therefore was wanton; but if it was not, he fuppoled it came from fome private hint, and that there was tome fecret understanding in the bufinefs; if fo, he congratulated his country on having the affic |