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House he might speak more freely. The no made it impossible that the House should ble lord was surely, at least, one of the prin- be competent judges how far they were or cipal ingredients in an extended and firin

were not proper, still the House svould union, and therefore the exclufion of such proceed always to vote such estimates, abilicies would not operace to the end for from the confidence they had in Ministers which union was to ardently desired. He from whole different departments the ettisaid that before he could unite with the mates are brought. From this it appearright honourable gentleman at the head ed, that if it ihould to happen that they of the Exchequer, which all parties seem- had no confidence in Minifters, they could ed to look for, that genueinan muit firtt be not in justice entrust thein with money for reconciled to the constitution, which his purpotes which the Houfe did not undercontinuance in office in defiance of the stand. The Crown itself admitted this refolutions of that House fo grossly violat: point, as appeared from the manner in ed. Men might unite after having differ which the King ofually addreifed both ed upon material points, which were pail. Houtes from the throne; for though he ed, and which could not possibly occur a began with “ My Lords and Gentlemen,” gain ; such was the case of the American fill when he came to speak of the necessawar: but it was impossible that men could Ty lupplies, he addressed himself fingly to ever think of uniting, while they held dif- the Lower Houle, saying, " Gentlemen ferent opinions refpecting points which of the House of Commons, I shall order were not passed ; and which might occur the proper estimates to be laid before you;" any day after.

The right honourable so that the particular di partment in which Gentleman, for instance, held that a Mi- confidence was absolutely neceflary, name. nister may remain in his place, after the ly, the granting of money, the King spoke House of Commons has declared that it only to the Commons, and not to the has no confidence in him, and the right Lords. The right honourable Gentleman honourable Gentleman held, that the con could not expect that the House of Comfidence of the Crown was sufficient to mons would give up their opinion to him ; maintaja and support him againit the opi- it would be more decent to sacrifice his onion of the House of Commons. Now, pinion to that House, and then he should for his part, he held it to be indispensably have no obje&tion to treat with him. He necellary, that a Minister thould have the did not wish business thould cease during confidence of the House; and that he a negotiation ; let the right honourable could not, and ought not to remain in of- Gentleman only declare that the presenc fice one moment after he should find he administration was virtually and fubftanhad loft it. Here then was a great and tially at an end, and that the present Mi. essential difference beriveen them, and nifters remained in office only that official which might every day be the cause of business should not be at a stand. On the division ; for he should be looking to the India businets the right honourable GenHouse of Commons for their contidence tleman and he might differ, but such a ditand support, while the right honourable ference would not break an union ; the Gentleman might be looking for both to House would Fairly decide between them, the Crowo. Ile withed to unbofom him- and pass the bill in such form as should self to the House, and would therefore de- appear to them most proper. Though hc clare it to be his opinion, from which it meant not to recede from two principles was imposible for him to depart, that the of his bill, a government at home, and confidence of the House of Commons was the permanency of that government, yet indisputably neceflary to the existence of he was in hopes to modify that part of it a Minister. He admitted that the nomi- respecting patronage, which had caused nation of Ministers was in the Crown, but the greatest alarm. The right honourable fill it must be with a view to the confi- Gentleman had gone into office for the dence of the House of Commons in parti- purpose of stopping the India bill, but he cular, rather than of the House of Lords; would do well to recollect, that by enand though the Crown had a right to no deavouring to stop one public measure, he tinate, the House of Commons had was the cause that all public business was a negative voice on the occasion: the at an end, and that too at a moment reason was obvious ; the right of voting which called for their utmost activity and money was in the Commons, and not in exertion. News had arrived this day of a the Lords; and as there were eltimates, great and important event; an event that fuch, for instance, as those that were to might possibly change the face of affairs be voted this evening, the nature of which in Europe; this event was, the final adVOL. VI. March 5784.



justment of the differences between the stration could not last that did not polfers it. Empress of Russia and the Porte. It ltwas certainly neccfiary that the Commons would now depend upon the abilities of thould confide in the Minister from whuic Ministers what hgure Great Britain was department eftimates come, as in the cale to make, and whether the was ftill to of the ordnance estimates to be voted this be confidered as one of the most formi- evening; but surely the honourable Gendable powers in Europe. But this was tleman would not declare that this was the not the only busine's that required the kind of confidence the Houfe had in sicw fteadv exertions of a spirited and united ad- when the resolution of the 16th of Janua. ministration the state of public credit, of ry passed. He and his colleagues were reathe revenue ; of foreign and domettic po- dy to resign the moment there should be a Jitics; and politics which could not well profpect of an adininiftration being formed be called either foreign or domestic, the by whom the couvery might be effectually politics of the dependencies of this coun- ferved; but he could not reconcile it to try. He called upon the House to look the duty he owed to his Sovereign and to at home, to look to the state of the Con- the people, or to his own honour, to retinent, and to the state of Ireland; and sign sooner. With respect to the India 1ay whether fuch a government as the pre-, biil, he said he was glad to hear that the fent could pollibly remain any longer, patronage was not to be given to the board without bringing down ruin on our affairs. here. That was certainly the most forBut when he called for the ditsolution of midable objection he had to the India bill; the present admimftration, he meant not and though he did not think he should to convey the most distant idea of dislike cordiallyapprove of it, altered and modified to treat with the right lionourable Gentic- as it was, he declared his objections to it man : fo far from harbouring any dislike, would be considerably lessened. He conhe was ready to treat, the moment he cluded with saying, that an union, in should have paid obedience to the Houle which the uniting parties acted by cach of Commons : ihen he would fee how för other fairly and openly, without being they could agree upon principic, after upon the watch to get rid of each other, which he was sure there would be found, was that alone from whence any good at least on his own part, and that of those could be expected. From a union foundwith whom he acted, no difficulty whate ed in principle, and in honour, the Soveever on perfonal grounds, or for personal reign would derive ease and security, the fituations.

Parliament would look up to it with confiThe Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, dence, and the people regard it with pleathat it was impoflible any man could with fure. for union more than he did, provided it Lord North faid he had not been in the could be effcfted upon principle, and with Houle when the debate commenced, but honour. The right honourable Gentle. had heard hiinlolf alluded to by the Chanman (poke lait of perfonal situations ; and cellor of the Exchequer, in his reply to he did right: for if they could agree up- the speech of his right honourable Friend. on every thing else, it was impolliile they He did not think his pretentions stood in could differ on that head. There might the way of that union ivhich was to much indeed be persons against whom he had no called for, but they should be no bar to it; perfonal diflike whatever ; whose private although he would not compliment the chara&ter he respected and revered; whofc prejudices of an individual, he would reaabilities were eminent, and vet, notwith- dily yield to the public good. He reatonftanding all this, they were periods of thac ed on the peculiar fituation in which Mr. defcription, with whom he could never Pitt food with that Houte, and desired te bring himself to act in the cabinti. [it might be allowed to reconcile him to the ras Lord North only Mr. Pitt had in view.] House, and restore him to its confidence. The right hon. Genticman faid, a union As to union, he said, if it was not foundmight take place, and one Minister might ed on principle and honour, it would be Jook for conhdence and support to the House of thort duration. Former difference was of Commonsandtheother to the Crown : he no.bar to a fubitantial union : he himself thought a Minister ought to look for the had experienced this to his fatisfaction, confidence of both : he would go farther, for while he acted with his right honourhe ought to look for the confidence of the able friend near him, and his colleagues, Il use of Lords, and of the people. He he had enjoyed all that fidelity, honour, admitted that the confidence of that House and support, that in his most fanguinc was abfoluecly ncceffary,and that an admini- ments he could have withed for.




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Mr. Marham thanked the noble Lord to whom the Company's bounds, cohich are for the upright, patriotic, and disinterest nowu due and unsatisfied, have been grante ed conduct he dilplayed. Obstacles were ed, at Bengal, Bombay, und Fort St. daily disappearing, and union approaching George, respectively, flating the amount of nearer and ncarer. All the obstacle now such bonds, the interest ii bears, at the rested with the right honourable Gentle time at which it is payable to the bondo man on the Treasury Bench; let hiin re- holders." tire, and the country would judge of him The motion passed without any oppoaccordingly.

Sirion. Mr. Puurs also complimented Lord The Order of the Day being read for North : advised Mr. Pitt to resign, as he the Houle to go into a Coinmitice on the might now do it with honour, and said, that it would gain him the confidence of the Houle. if he did not relign, painful Sir Cecil Wray opposed it on the old as it was for him to lay to, he must oppose ground of the unpopularity of that tax; him.

laid it was uncqual and oppressive, and Lord Mazhon said, his right honourable from its nature incapable of being renFriend ought to relift the fente of the dered so perfect as to defy evasion. House, if by to doing he could preserve Colonel Onslow also opposed it ; he faid the confitution. He professed himself a

it had been found to be extremely partial great friend to the democracy of this go. in its operation, and had therefore become veroment, but when the House claimed odious and unpopular. One of his conthe right of naming Ministers, it destroy- ficuents, a thopkeeper at Guildford, had ed the constitution.

allured him, that the Recipe Tax would General Conway said, considering the make a difference in his trade of 5ool. a present state of Europe, of our finance, year. He asked, what Member of that revenues, and credit, and also the state of Houte, what man of fortune paid ncar as Ireland, it was dithoueft to remain in of. much ? fice, to the suspension of all the great

Mr. Duncomb, Sir Joseph Mazubey, and measures that these objects to preslingly Mr. Robinson, also opputed going into the called for.

Committce. Several other gentleman (poke, and the Lord Surrey, and Lord Nugent, fpoke motion palled nem. con.

in favour of the tax.
The Houte then went into a Coinmittee Loril John Cuvendish observed, that if a
of Supply, to consider of the

shopkeeper at Guildford paid sool. a year
towards the receipt tax, his trade must be

pretty extensive; for taking all the rcMr. -Steele moved, that a fum not ex. ceipts given by hiin to be for forty thil. ceeding 111,000l. be granted for fervices lings cach, which was the lowett fum tax. done, and not provided for by Parliam.cor. ed, he must turn annually 100,000l. llc This pafied without opposition. He then believed, therefore, the Guildford elector moved for another fuin of 430,000l. for must have imposed upon his representathe ordinary and extraordinary forvices of tive.

On a division, there appeared
This last was opposed, fo far as it in For the Speaker's leaving the Chair 167
cluded estimates for fortifications and the Against it

purchase of Sir Gregory Page's house for The House then went into a Commit-
the cadets at Woolwich, until the Com- tee, went through the bill, and ordered
mitrec Thould be furnithed with proofs of the amendments to be reported to the
the necessity of them. It was at lalt a Houle.
greed that nothing should be voted for the As soon as the House was resumed,
new works, or for the purchase of Sir G.
Page's house. These being deducted, the

remaining sum of 324,964 1. was voted Lori Beauchamp brought up the report
without a division. The House was then of the Committee appointed to search the
resumed, and adjourned at 11 o'clock. Journals for precedents relative to the

usages of the House, touching the exer-
Thursday, February 12.

cile or non-exercile of any difcretionary General Smith moved, “ That the Di- power vested in the fervants of the Crown, re&tors of the East India Company do lay or any men, or body of men, relative to before his House, a lift of ihoje persons the expenditure of public money. It be

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the pretent year.


gan with precedents so far back as the HOUSE of COMMONS. year 1626, and proceeding regularly on to

Monday, February 16. the resolution moved by the present Chapcellor of the Exchequer, velative to patent LORD GEORGE LENOX, CONSTABLE OF places in the Customs, towards the end of the Sellions 1783. As soon as the report Lord Maitland observed, that the Of. was read,

fice of Constable of the Tower, to which Mr. Dundas rose and moved, that the Lord George Lenox had been Jarely noreports be printed.

minated, was in the opinion of many peoThe Solicitor General seconded the mo. ple, such as made it neceffary he should rjon. He said, it was necessary gentleinen vacate his seat. In order that the House thould have time to consider the precedents miglit be enabled to judge of this matter, adduced ; to him many of them appeared he would move, “ That there be laid beto have no relation to the resolution of fore this House, a copy of the Commission the Lords, which were the object to which appointing Lord George H. Lenos, Conthey were supposed to point.

stable of the Tower. Lord Branchamp said, he had no objec Colonel North seconded the motion. rion to defer the business till to-morrow. Mr. Steele observed, that the motion A longer adjourninent he considered as was absurd at present, as the commillion unnecessary.

was not yet made out. He contended that After some further conversation, the it was a military office, which did not by consideration of the report was, on the re law vacate his feat. This, he said, apcommendation of Mr. Pitt, put off to peared clearly from the falary of 1000l. Monday, as were also the other orders of per annum annexed to it, being included day, and at nine o'clock the Houle ad in the estimates of the army for guards journed to Monday.

and garrisons.

Lord Maitland said, there were other persons besides the Constable of the Tower,

whose salaries were included in, and voted HOUSE of LORD S.

with the army estimates, viz. the SecretaFriday, February 13.

ry at War, and the Paymaster General,

one would venture to lay, they NESBITT'S DIVORCE EILI.. held military offices; therefore, he was In a Comınittce went through the diffe- by no means convinced from this, that

the office was purely military. rent clauses. The Lord Chancellor thought the clause dered the motion as nugatory, as no copy

The Chancellor of the Exchequer confifor allowing her a maintenance, ought not to be filled up with more than 2001. He could be had, no commilion then exifthad objected to that sum on a former oc

ing: casion, and were their Lordships to grant and in rooi of it moved, That there

Lord Maitland withdrew his motion, more, he should look upon it as an invita- be laid before the House a copy of the war, tion to, and a reward for infidelity. Loris Carlise and Fitzwilliam were

rant for making out the commission, &c.". for granting an additional hundred, as the

And he said, that after that motion should fortune brought by the Lady alluded to

have been disposed of, he would more for by the noble Lord, was very far inferior Lord Cornwallis, the late Constable of the

a copy of the commission under which to that brought by Mrs. Nesbitt. Lord Gower did not think that fortune which the Houle would see the nature

Tower, was appointed to that office; by

of ought to be considered at all; if any rule the office itself.—The motion passed in this was adopted, it should be to make the al

form. Jowance in proportion to the degree of in

Lord Surrey said, the way of judging famy proved. The question to allow her 2001. per an, purely civil, or mixed, would be to fee

whether the office was purely military, num was put and agreed to, and the bill whether there were any fees annexed time ordered to be reported on Monday.

immemorial to it. Monday, February 16.

Lord Maitland then moved,

That there be laid btfore this House an No Debate. Adjourned to Thursday account of all fees, perquifites, and allowthe 19th.

* ances, payable 10, anit claimed by the Coxjable of the Tower of London."


It was afterwards moved to amend the Yoruis 129. Februarii 1628. same, by adding,

Mr.Shervyle reporteth from the com“ Aria the form of the warrant for fay “ mittee for tonage and poundage. That ing the same, or any part thereof."

a great Itop to it is the detaining the posThe fame was, upon the qucítion put, “ folion of the merchant's goods, and the agreed to by the House.

“ liay of their proceedings, by injunéti

ons in the Exchequer Chamber. That PRECEDENTS FROM THE JOURNALS

“ the Committee hath resolved to send a RESPECTING PRIVILLGE.

mellage to the Court of Exchequer." The order of the day being read for

Upon quettion, a mellage to be sent taking the sport into confideration,

“ from this Houfe to the Court of ExcheLord Boruchamp rote, and after advert

quer, to the effect of the draught now ing to the manner in which the cause of

“ read. This to be done by four of the the Committee's bav!og been appuinted

“ Houfe : Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy, had toco occafioned, he stated that the

“ Sir Francis Collington, Sir Nath. Rich, Lords founded their retojutions which

“ Sir Tho. Phillippes. This writing, with gave rise to this enquiry on a resolution

“ :he papers annexed, to be delivered by of their own in the year 1704 ; this reto

“ Mr. Chancellor of the Duchy, and to lution was, thar neither House of Parlia

report their answer." meat fould claim or affume any new pri

This was a cafe which arose at the time, vilege uithout the concurrence of the o

when the great question of tonage and ther; tar in this proceeding the Lords act, t with very little contideration, for merchants had their goods leised, becaufe

poundage was violently-agitated ; several haises ionked only one page further in they would not content to pay a duty entheir journals, they would have found a

actéd, contrary in their opinion, to the law nothier reiolution that would have pointed of the land. Their goods were detained out to then the right road they ought to for a long time, till complaint was made to have pursued. The resolution to which he the Houie, who immediately interposed, alluded was, that if any new privilege and sent a message to the Judges to release fhould be assumed by the House of Com; the goods, fo detained, with all convenient mors, or any proceeding of theirs should speed. The discretionary power of the appear ambiguous, then a conference should Judges of England was vested in them by be demanded, in which the Houses might at law, and yet the House of Commons, and length unde fard oncanother. Why did the the House of Commons only, interfered, Lords overlook this falutary and wife retolu- and gave an opinion relative to the exercile tion ; ivhy did they proceed, without calling of their difcretion. The Journals of the for a confcenci, to condemn the procecd. Lords of that day contained not a fingle ings of the Commons: They probably had resolution, declaring that the Commons their reafons for their conduct; but it was

had attempted to suspend the execution of not founded in that spirit of harmony and law. moderation which ought to characterise all The next precedent that he would take their proceedings. Having very ably and notice of was from the Commons Journal, accurately laid down various grounds of Vol. VII. Page 507. constitutional argument in support of the Sabbati 20° die Jurii, 1663. resolution moved the 24th of December, Ordered, and in objection to the proceedings of the

“ That all the proceedings at law in the Lords upon it, he adverted to the report be “ cjcctment brought by James Berry, to fore the Honfe, which he said was full of


the title of certain lands, lying in precedents, and proved beyond a cavil, • púlver Fen ; and all proceedings ar law that the Houfe had for ages been in the " in cases of like nature, concerning the practice of interfering, with their advice, " ninety-five thousand acres, Fenland, in all cases where there was a question of “ in Bedford Level, or any part thereof be executive government, and of finance.

“ stay'd until the matter touching the said He would not take up the time of the

“ Fens, which is now depending in this House, in shewing how all, and every one

House, be determined.” of the precedents collected in the report, This was

a Atill stronger case : for applicd to the subje&t matter of the debate, though by law the Courts had an unques. he would therefore content himself with tionable right to try every cause of the nataking notice of a few; and first, with ture of that alluded to in this precedent, that taken from the Commons Journal, fill the House of Commons prevented the Vul. I. page 292.

Courts from determining upon points, on

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