Houfe he might fpeak more freely. The noble lord was furely, at leaft, one of the principal ingredients in an extended and firm union, and therefore the exclufion of fuch abilities would not operate to the end for which union was fo ardently defired. He faid that before he could unite with the right honourable gentleman at the head of the Exchequer, which all parties feemed to look for, that gentleman must first be reconciled to the conftitution, which his continuance in office in defiance of the refolutions of that House fo grofsly violat ed. Men might unite after having differed upon material points, which were paffed, and which could not poifibly occur again; fuch was the cafe of the American war: but it was impoffible that men could ever think of uniting, while they held different opinions refpecting points which were not passed; and which might occur any day after. The right honourable Gentleman, for inftance, held that a Minifter may remain in his place, after the Houfe of Commons has declared that it has no confidence in him, and the right honourable Gentleman held, that the confidence of the Crown was fufficient to maintain and fupport him against the opinion of the Houfe of Commons. Now, for his part, he held it to be indifpenfably neceffary, that a Minifter thould have the confidence of the Houfe; and that he could not, and ought not to remain in of fice one moment after he fhould find he had loft it. Here then was a great and effential difference between them, and which might every day be the cause of divifion; for he should be looking to the Houfe of Commons for their confidence and fupport, while the right honourable Gentleman might be looking for both to the Crown. He wished to unbofom himfelf to the Houfe, and would therefore declare it to be his opinion, from which it was impoffible for him to depart, that the confidence of the House of Commons was indifputably neceflary to the existence of a Minifter. He admitted that the nomination of Minifters was in the Crown, but ftill it must be with a view to the confidence of the Houfe of Commons in particular, rather than of the Houfe of Lords; and though the Crown had a right to nominate, the House of Commons had a negative voice on the occafion : the reafon was obvious; the right of voting money was in the Commons, and not in the Lords; and as there were estimates, fuch, for inflance, as thofe that were to be voted this evening, the nature of which VOL. VI. March 1784.

made it impoffible that the House should be competent judges how far they were or were not proper, ftill the Houfe would proceed always to vote fuch estimates, from the confidence they had in Minifters from whofe different departments the ettimates are brought. From this it appeared, that if it thould fo happen that they had no confidence in Minifters, they could not in justice entrust them with money for purpofes which the Houfe did not underftand. The Crown itfelf admitted this point, as appeared from the manner in which the King ufually addreffed bott Houfes from the throne; for though he began with "My Lords and Gentlemen," fill when he came to fpeak of the neceffa y fupplics, he addressed himself fingly to the Lower Houle, faying, "Gentlemen of the Houfe of Commons, I fhall order the proper estimates to be laid before you;" fo that the particular department in which confidence was abfolutely neceffary, namely, the granting of money, the King spoke only to the Commons, and not to the Lords. The right honourable Gentleman could not expect that the Houfe of Commons would give up their opinion to him ;' it would be more decent to facrifice his opinion to that Houfe, and then he should have no objection to treat with him. He did not with bufinefs fhould ceafe during a negotiation; let the right honourable Gentleman only declare that the prefent adminiftration was virtually and fubftantially at an end, and that the prefent Minifters remained in office only that official business should not be at a stand. On the India bufinets the right honourable Gen→ tleman and he might differ, but fuch a difference would not break an union; the Houfe would fairly decide between them, and pass the bill in fuch form as fhould appear to them moft proper. Though he meant not to recede from two principles of his bill, a government at home, and the permanency of that government, yet he was in hopes to modify that part of it refpecting patronage, which had caused the greatest alarm. The right honourable Gentleman had gone into office for the purpose of stopping the India bill, but he would do well to recollect, that by endeavouring to ftop one public measure, he was the cause that all public bufinefs was at an end, and that too at a moment which called for their utmost activity and exertion. News had arrived this day of a great and important event; an event that might poffibly change the face of affairs in Europe; this event was, the final ad

juftment of the differences between the Emprefs of Ruffia and the Porte. It would now depend upon the abilities of Minifters what figure Great Britain was to make, and whether the was ftill to be confidered as one of the moft formidable powers in Europe. But this was not the only bufinefs that required the fteady exertions of a spirited and united adminiftration-the state of public credit, of the revenue; of foreign and domeftic politics; and politics which could not well be called either foreign or domeftic, the politics of the dependencies of this country. He called upon the Houfe to look at home, to look to the state of the Continent, and to the state of Ireland; and fay whether fuch a government as the prefent could poffibly remain any longer, without bringing down ruin on our affairs. But when he called for the diffolution of the prefent adminiftration, he meant not to convey the moft diftant idea of diflike to treat with the right honourable Gentleman: fo far from harbouring any diflike, he was ready to treat, the moment he thould have paid obedience to the Houfe of Commons: then he would fee how far they could agree upon principle, after which he was fure there would be found, at least on his own part, and that of thofe with whom he acted, no difficulty whatever on perfonal grounds, or for perfonal fituations.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, that it was impoffible any man could with for union more than he did, provided it could be effected upon principle, and with honour. The right honourable Gentleman fpoke laft of perfonal fituations; and he did right: for if they could agree upon every thing elfe, it was impoflible they could differ on that head. There might indeed be perfons against whom he had no perfonal diflike whatever; whofe private character he refpected and revered; whofe abilities were eminent, and yet, notwithftanding all this, they were perfons of that defcription, with whom he could never bring himself to act in the cabinet. [It was Lord North only Mr. Pitt had in view.] The right hon. Gentleman faid, a union might take place, and one Minifter might Jook for confidence and fupport to the Houfe of Commons and the other to the Crown: he thought a Minifter ought to look for the confidence of both: he would go farther, he ought to look for the confidence of the House of Lords, and of the people. He admitted that the confidence of that House was abfolutely neceffary, and that an admini

ftration could not last that did not poffefs it. It was certainly neceffary that the Commons fhould confide in the Minister from whofe department eftimates come, as in the cafe of the ordnance eftimates to be voted this evening; but furely the honourable Gentleman would not declare that this was the kind of confidence the Houfe had in view when the refolution of the 16th of Janua ry paffed. He and his colleagues were ready to resign the moment there should be a profpect of an administration being formed by whom the country might be effectually ferved; but he could not reconcile it to the duty he owed to his Sovereign and to the people, or to his own honour, to refign fooner. With refpect to the India bill, he faid he was glad to hear that the patronage was not to be given to the board here. That was certainly the most formidable objection he had to the India bill; and though he did not think he fhould cordiallyapprove of it, altered and modified as it was, he declared his objections to it would be confiderably leffened. He concluded with faying, that an union, in which the uniting parties acted by each other fairly and openly, without being upon the watch to get rid of each other, was that alone from whence any good could be expected. From a union founded in principle, and in honour, the Sovereign would derive eafe and fecurity, the Parliament would look up to it with confidence, and the people regard it with pleafure.

Lord North faid he had not been in the Houfe when the debate commenced, but had heard himself alluded to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his reply to the fpeech of his right honourable Friend. He did not think his pretensions food in the way of that union which was fo much called for, but they should be no bar to it; although he would not compliment the prejudices of an individual, he would readily yield to the public good. He reafoned on the peculiar fituation in which Mr. Pitt flood with that Houfe, and defired he might be allowed to reconcile him to the Houfe, and restore him to it's confidence. As to union, he faid, if it was not founded on principle and honour, it would be of fhort duration. Former difference was no.bar to a substantial union: he himself had experienced this to his fatisfaction, for while he acted with his right honourable friend near him, and his colleagues, he had enjoyed all that fidelity, honour, and fupport, that in his moft fanguine moments he could have withed for.

Mr.

Mr. Marham thanked the noble Lord for the upright, patriotic, and difinterefted conduct he difplayed. Obftacles were daily difappearing, and union approaching nearer and nearer. All the obstacle now refted with the right honourable Gentleman on the Treasury Bench; let him retire, and the country would judge of him accordingly.

Mr. Poys alfo complimented Lord North: advifed Mr. Pitt to refign, as he might now do it with honour, and faid, that it would gain him the confidence of the Houfe. If he did not refign, painful as it was for him to say fo, he muft oppofe

him.

Lord Mahon faid, his right honourable Friend ought to refift the fenfe of the Houfe, if by fo doing he could preferve the conftitution. He profelled himself a great friend to the democracy of this go. vernment, but when the House claimed the right of naming Minifters, it deftroyed the conftitution.

General Conway faid, confidering the prefent ftate of Europe, of our finances, revenues, and credit, and also the state of Ireland, it was diihoueft to remain in of fice, to the fufpenfion of all the great meafures that thefe objects to preffingly

called for.

Several other gentleman fpoke, and the motion paffed nem, con.

The Houfe then went into a Committee of Supply, to confider of the

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Mr. Steele moved, that a fum not exceeding 111,000l. be granted for fervices done, and not provided for by Parliament. This paffed without oppofition. He then moved for another fum of 430,000l. for the ordinary and extraordinary fervices of the prefent year.

This laft was oppofed, fo far as it included eftimates for fortifications and the purchase of Sir Gregory Page's houfe for the cadets at Woolwich, until the Committee thould be furnished with proofs of the ncceffity of them. It was at laft agreed that nothing fhould be voted for the new works, or for the purchase of Sir G. Page's houfe. These being deducted, the remaining fum of 324,9641. was voted without a divifion. The Houfe was then refumed, and adjourned at 11 o'clock.

Thursday, February 12.

General Smith moved, "That the Directors of the East India Company do lay before this Houfe, a lift of thofe perfons

RECEIPT TAX.

Sir Cecil Wray oppofed it on the old ground of the unpopularity of that tax; laid it was unequal and oppreffive, and from its nature incapable of being rendered fo perfect as to defy evasion.

Colonel Onflow alfo oppofed it; he faid it had been found to be extremely partial in its operation, and had therefore become odious and unpopular. One of his conftituents, a fhopkeeper at Guildford, had affured him, that the Receipt Tax would make a difference in his trade of 500l. a year. He afked, what Member of that Houfe, what man of fortune paid near as much?

Mr. Duncomb, Sir Jofeph Mawbey, and Mr. Robinfon, aifo oppofed going into the

Committee.

Lord Surrey, and Lord Nugent, fpoke in favour of the tax.

Lord John Cavendish observed, that if a fhopkeeper at Guildford paid 500l. a year towards the receipt tax, his trade must be pretty extenfive; for taking all the receipts given by him to be for forty fhillings cach, which was the loweft fum taxed, he must turn annually 100,000l. He believed, therefore, the Guildford elector muft have impofed upon his reprefentative.

On a division, there appeared For the Speaker's leaving the Chair 167 Against it

33

The Houfe then went into a Committee, went through the bill, and ordered the amendments to be reported to the Houfe.

As foon as the Houfe was refumed,

LORD'S RESOLUTIONS.

Lord Beauchamp brought up the report of the Committee appointed to fearch the Journals for precedents relative to the ufages of the Houfe, touching the exercife or non-exercife of any difcretionary power vefted in the fervants of the Crown, or any men, or body of men, relative to the expenditure of public money. It be

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