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rich, the nation might be haughty, and minifters might be proud, and might be tempted to involve the nation in rafh wars, from the facility with which they could obtain fupplies. But, if the nation were poor, if it were deeply involved in debt, if it were loaded with taxes which it could fcarcely bear, minifters would not dare to involve this country in expenfive wars without provocation and without neceffity; for the nation would tear that minister in pieces, who, in the prefent fituation of our finances, should involve the kingdom in a war, or attempt to lay on an additional load of taxes without a fufficient caufe. But the bill of Mr. Pitt tended to fubvert, as it were, the great fyftem of nature. For without making us rich, it took from us any advantage which we might derive from our poverty.

Earl Stanhope stated, that it was a great advantage of the plan which he had now fuggefted, that it might another year be grafted upon Mr. Pitt's plan. The bill of the minifter was not defective fo much on account of what it did contain, as on account of what it ought to, but did not contain. It was his wifh, that Mr. Pitt's bill fhould pafs with out a diffenting voice, in order to fhow foreign powers, that, what ever might be the differences of opinion in this country with refpect to politics, the was one fubject upon which we were unanimous, a firm determination to reduce our debt, and redeem our finances. People might wonder how he could reconcile it to his confcience to vote for fo defective and fo bad a bill. But his principal objection was, that a minifter might be induced to involve this country into a war, in order to feize upon a large furplus; and that

objection did not now exift. The furplus of the year 1786 was not that tempting morfel, that feducing bait, for the operation of which upon a minifter's integrity he en tertained fo lively apprehenfions. Lord Stanhope concluded with moving a refolution," that it was highly important to the public creditors, and neceffary for the welfare of the country, that a plan for the reduc tion of the national debt should be rendered abfolutely permanent; and that it was therefore effential that the public faith fhould be fully pledged to individuals, by an exprefs compact being entered into between the state and the creditors, fo that the breach of fuch a contract fhould be equivalent to an act of bankruptcy."

Lord Loughborough and lord Stormont paid very high compli ments to the fuggeftions of earl Stanhope. They declared, that they had never recollected a first fpeech in that affembly, which was the circumftance under which ford Stanhope had fpoken, that had come with more weight, or made a more evident impreffion on the house. His ideas and their own, refpecting the principles of the conftitution, and the conduct which ought to be purfued at the prefent moment, were perfectly fimilar. They however advised him to withdraw his prefent motion. To this lord Stanhope could not confent, as his principal defign in fuggefting it had been to enter his opi nion upon the journals of the house. Lord Camelford replied to the arguments that had been employed. He expreffed his wifhes, that the houfe would proceed with fuch found policy and extreme caution, as to avoid throwing the leaft difcredit upon the bill, or giving the world an idea that it was thought

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an imperfect meafure. Nothing indeed was more defireable than that the plan fhould be permanent; but it was impoffible to give it a higher degree of permanency than it would derive from the bill upon the table. With regard to the propofal of paying off the three per cents at gol., lord Camelford thought, that the plan of paying them off at the market price was more advantageous for the public, because it made a period of war the time that it would be most easy for difcharging the debt. The refolution of lord Stanhope was fet afide by a previous question.

A motion was made by lord Stormont for a meffage to be fent to the houfe of commons, to know the grounds upon which they had paffed the bill, that by this means they might obtain a copy of the report of the felect committee. He reminded the houfe, that on a former occasion the minifter had of his own accord fent up minutes of the evidence, that the commons had heard at their bar, and which they ftated to have been the ground of their proceedings in the cafe of the Irish propofitions. A meffage was drawn up by the duke of Richmond, and appeared at the moment to have received the counte. nance of Mr. Pitt; but it was difcovered upon further enquiry, that no precedent could be found for a compliance with fuch a demand; and of confequence the houfe of commons, upon the motion of the minifter, returned an answer to that purpose. Lord Loughborough and lord Stormont refifted all farther proceedings upon the bill of Mr. Pitt, upon the ground that the houfe had not before them the information which they had already declared to be effentially neceffary;

but they were over-ruled by the fenfe of the majority.

On the fame day, on which Mr. Pitt had originally moved his refolutions preparatory to the introduction of his finking fund bill, a meffage from the king was delivered to both houfes of parliament, stating, "that it gave him great concern that it had not been found poffible to confine the expences of the civil lit within the annual fum of 850,000l., now applicable to that purpose. A farther debt had neceffarily been incurred, and the king relied on the zeal and affection of parliament, that they would take the debt into their early confideration, and make fuch provifion as the circumftances might appear to require." Upon the motion for taking this meffage into confideration, Mr. Pitt remarked, that, when the laft regulation took place with refpect to the civil lift, it was provided by parliament that an annual deduction of 50,000l. fhould be made out of the allowance for that purpose, for the pay ment by inftallments of a debt of 300,000l., due upon exchequer bills, which had been iffued to fupply the former deficiencies of the lift. He put his argument from this circumftance into the form of a dilemma. Either parliament had directed, that at a future period the civil lift was to be allowed 50,000l. more than was neceffary, or it was put for the prefent upon a footing of 50,000l. lefs than was neceffary. Experience had proved the latter to be the cafe. It had been found perfectly impracticable to meet all all the demands with 850,000l, and a fresh debt of 30,cool. had accrued in addition to the fum of 18o,cool., which yet remained unpaid of the exchequer bills. He

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concerns, he thought the proper way was to have fent out a perfon to affft him, whofe rank in life would not have rendered it improper for him to act in a fubordinate capacity. Mr. Pitt replied as to the appointment of an ambaffador to Madrid, that, at the time of lord Cheiterfield's nomination, there was not any room to expect that an ambaffador would not have been difpatched from that court. As foon as it was difcovered our reprefentative was fopped from proceeding any farther. The matter had remained long in fufpence, and as foon as any certainty had been obtained, lord Chesterfield was finally recalled. Several queftions were put to the minifter, refpecting the future income of the prince of Wales, by Mr. alderman Newnham, Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Fox. By the latter it was remarked, that he knew no proper method of bringing the bufinefs before the house, but by meffage from the crown, and he earnestly hoped minifters would advife the fovereign accordingly. If they did not, he fhould himself venture to introduce the bufinefs previoufly to the rifing of parliament. The motion of Mr. Pitt was ultimately voted.

fhould therefore move for a fum, equal to the amount of both hefe taken together, to be granted to defray all incumbrances, and of confequence that the full fum of 950,000l. fhould remain for the annual expenditure of the civil list. Mr. Drake paid many compliments to the moral and religious character of the fovereign; but the preffing necellity of the times rendered oeconomy in every part of the public expenditure indifpenfably neceffary. All ranks of people muit make it their first object, and it was the duty of the crown in particular to fet the example. Mr. Drake remarked upon the very large appointments of certain patent offices in the houfhold, and his objections were antwered by Mr. Pitt. Mr. Powys confeffed himfelf aware of the indelicacy of feeming to object against the motion; but, before he could give his confent, he expected to hear Mr. Pitt pledge himfelf to the house, that he had ufed his utmost attention to prevent the debts being incurred by any unneceffary expences. Was he to believe, that no ambaffadors had been appointed to foreign courts, and maintained on high falaries, while they were in fact perfectly inefficient, and had not even once for years together. In both houfes the prefent dereached the court to which they were appointed? Was he to confider the having two ambaffadors upon feparate eftablishments at Paris, as a teft of economy? He ac. knowledged, that Mr. Eden was as well qualified for the talk of negociating a commercial treaty, as any man in the country; but he had ever underflood, that commercial as well as political matters were under the care of the ambaffador; and if the duke of Dorfet cither had not leifure, or was not competent to enter into the detail of commercial

mand in favour of the civil lift was contrafted with the bill of Mr. Burke for regulating the payment of the civil lift expences, by which it was exprefsly enacted, that no debt under that head fhould in future be incurred, and with the fpeech from the throne in December 1782. It was abfurd to let Mr. Burke's bill remain in full force, and yet come down in the face of an act of parliament, and call upon the houfe to vote money for debts of the crown. The fpeech that was alluded to had been delivered at a

time, when the principal minifters in both houfes of parliament were in high office; and its language was very explicit. "I have car ried into ftrict execution the feveral reductions in my civil lift expences, directed by an act of the laft feffion. I have introduced a farther reform into other departments, and fuppreffed feveral finecure places in them. I have by this means fo regulated my establishments, that my expence fhall not in future exceed my income."

The allufion to this fpeech gave birth to an altercation between the marquis of Lanfdown and lord vifcount Stormont. The laft of thefe noblemen, as well as the duke of Portland profeffed to have examined the estimate of the expenditure of the civil lift, which had been produced during the administration of the marquis of Lanfdown, and they had found a furplus of no more than 2471. It was highly blameable under thefe circumstances to have pledged the royal word, that his beneficiencies and his extraordinary expences fhould for the future be confined within the limits of fo paltry a fum. There were befides feveral glaring errors in the eftimate. The embaffy to Holland had been totally omitted, and the article of prefents to foreign minif ters had been estimated at a fum, which was notoriously inferior to the real expence. Lord Lanfdown entered into a juftification of his proceedings. His adminiftration continued only fix months, during which time he had made an annual faving, by ftriking off various finecure and ufelefs places, to the amount of 116,00rl.; and he was proceeding to abolish a ftill greater number. This had induced him to advise his fovereign to make ufe of the language in queftion. Situat

ed as he was, and plainly forefeeing that he fhould not long prefide at the helm, he thought the laft and best earneft, which he could give to his country of his wish to further its welfare, was to tie down the civil lift and expenditure within certain bounds; and, as he then flattered himself, to put it totally out of the power of any minifter to make any fresh demand upon the country. Lord Lanfdown accounted for the errors that had been found in the estimate, by defcribing the time at which it had been drawn. It was well known, that after his refignation fix weeks had paffed away before the new administration was fixed; and all that time his name remained at the treafury, though he was in fact out of office. In the courfe of the time it was dif covered by the clerks, that, according to an act of parliament, a paper refpecting the civil lift was to be laid on the table of the house of commons by the fourth of April. They were a good deal alarmed; and, having come to him upon the occafion, he had figned the paper. It was in fact however nothing more than a loofe paper, hafstily made out by the clerks of the treafury, without any fort of fuperintendance, without the fanction of any board, without appearing on the minutes, or being in any way a matter of official record. Lord Lanfdown at the fame time moved for a minute of the board of treafury of the fourteenth of March 1783, from which it appeared, that, according to his fyftem, there would be a furplus for the extraordinary expences of the fovereign of 8,9861.

At the period of voting the eftimates of the navy on the firft of March, fome obfervations were fuggefted by captain Macbride, that appear to deferve to be recorded.

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He cenfured extremely the voting very large fums for the repair of fixty and fixty-four gun fhips, and obferved, that our having fo many veffels of this fort was a principal reason of the many defeats we had fuffered in the last war. The French had not now more than three or four fixty-; four gun fhips, and they took care. not to build any new ones upon that conftruction. Another thing against our navy was, that the French feventy-four gun fhips were of two thousand tons burthen, while our feventy-fours had been reduced to one thousand fix hundred tons. Captain Macbride verily believed, that, if the number of our hips were reduced by one third, the navy of England would prove one third the stronger. He was fill more fevere in his condemnation of the abfurd fyftem of fuffering the fhips to remain in their copper bottoms during a time of peace. If we perfitted in this idea, there would be no occafion to argue whether fhips of one fize or another fhould be built, for we fhould foon have no navy in our poffeffion. The French had difcovered the folly of the practice, and for fome time had left off the mode of fheathing their hips. We ought therefore to do the fame, or at least to take off the copper when the fhips were to lie long in fill water. The copper corroded, and eat more into their bolts than either worms or time. The confequence would be, that, the inftant the ships which had long laid by were fent to fea, their bot toms would drop out, and thoufands of brave feamen would perifh in the ocean. The ideas of cap tain Macbride were confirmed by fir John Jervis; and fo far as related to the heathing with copper, by captain Luttrel. Sir Charles Middleton comptroller of the navy, 1786.

expected, that motives of delicacy would have prevented the agitation of the subject in the house of commons; and he was fure, that upon cooler reflect on captain Macbride would be of opinion with him, that difcuffions of this kind could not be publicly brought forward with, out manifeft impropriety and danger. Mr. Huffey replied, that this was a doctrine that could by no means be admitted, at the moment that the house was going to vote away 14,00ol. or 16,000l. of the people's money for ufelefs or pernicious purpofes. Parliament, upon occafion of the fortifications, had fhown, that there was still fome spirit and virtue left in the nation., A great many gentlemen had the welfare of their country at heart, and all thofe would certainly join and fupport the gallant officer in his enquiry. The estimates were carried without a divifion

A fubject relative to the fupplies," which excited fome animadvertion, in the houfe of commons, was in relation to fome buildings carrying on at the admiralty, and the ex-. pence of which was elimated at 13,cool. The fubject was originally introduced by Mr. Jolliffe.. The meafure was vindicated by Mr. Brett and Mr. Hopkins, two lords of the admiralty, who ftated, that, the offices of the clerks in that department were fo narrow, as to be, totally inadequate to their purpose, and to occalion many inconveni encies. Mr. Jolliffe obferved in reply, that he found in the plans fubmitted to the houfe feveral rooms of fuch a defcription as ufually conftituted an elegant manlion, but nothing that relembled offices for clerks. It was answered, that the prefent dwelling-houfe of lord Howe was to be converted into offices and room for papers, and that the new

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